Posted on 09/20/2019 9:01:36 AM PDT by pastorbillrandles
Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” ( John 6:28-29)
Salvation cannot be obtained by our personal merit. Thank God , because there is not one of us who could ever merit salvation. We cannot earn it, nor can we who have received the gift, ever lose it due to lack of merit. The scriptures make it obvious, “By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight…”.
None of us can earn our salvation, nor can we in anywise put God in debt to us, all that He gives is freely given, it is grace. Salvation is Grace, undeserved favor.
If we couldn’t do anything to earn it, neither can we forfeit it by what we do. I do not believe that there is any particular sin that a believer can do which would cost him his salvation.
I cannot emphasize these blessed and simple truths enough, because those of us who set out the case against ‘unconditional assurance’ , (ie Once Saved Always Saved) are always accused of preaching ” good works”, or works based salvation.
Thank God for scriptures like Ephesians 2:8-10,
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. ( Ephesians 2:8-10)
There is nothing I could ever do to earn my salvation, nor to lose it, nor to add to it or take away from it, thank God. Therefore there is nothing I can personally boast in, all of the glory for my salvation goes to Jesus, who,“…has Loved us and bought us from our sins with his own blood”.(Revelation 1:5)
Salvation is not unconditional however. There is one, and only one condition, and that is that we must believe. “He that believes…shall have eternal life”. “This is the Work, that you believe on Him whom the Father has sent”.
Over and over again, we are told by the Apostles that we must believe to be saved. All the Father requires is belief, steadfast, loyal faith. He knows we are weak, unsteady, liable to sin, fall and defect, yet all he requires is belief.
Is the requirement to believe, in the bible a “one time” experience, or is belief seen as an ongoing loyalty which sustaines to the very end, (the goal) of Salvation ?
Popular Bible teacher Charles Stanley presents a very common misconception about saving Faith when He assures people,
Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.” (Stanley Charles, Eternal Security- Can You Be sure? Thomas Nelson pg 93)
The Apostles never taught anything like that. Instead they taught believers to “Hold fast the profession of their hope … to the end…”
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ( Hebrews 3:6)
The danger to the soul, according to the teaching of Hebrews , is ‘unbelief’. The example from the Old Testament was the incident with the 12 spies. All of Israel heard the gospel of the land flowing with milk and honey. All of them rejoiced, until they came to Kadesh Barnea, where they saw the Giants.
From then on, only two out of that entire whole truly believed! The rest fell short of entering into God’s rest, because they cast aside their confidence, in unbelief.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; ( Hebrews 3:14)
What does this say about people now, who once believed passionately in Christ and the gospel, but who no longer “hold fast”? I know people who set out believing in Christ, but who no longer maintain faith. Are they still saved? As we pointed out in the last message, “whoever goes on believing shall be saved…” , not whoever ever believed at one time!
Saving Faith is not mere mental assent to a set of propositions. It is an ongoing commitment of a loyalty to a Revelation from God, much like the vows at a wedding. it is “faithfulness”, a response to what God has done and revealed. Jesus called it “abiding in the vine” in John 15.
Neither Jesus or the Apostles ever held forth anything similar to Charles Stanley’s proposition that one can be saved on a temporary belief, which one eventually defects from. Believers “go on believing” whatever it takes. If that belief calls for self renunciation, so be it. When the belief requires personal repentance, true believers repent. None of those things are “works” they are simply elements of the one and only condition God has set on salvation, Faith.
It is not the flesh which has had the Righteousness of Christ imputed to me. That you would try to establish that lie as my position tells me this is not a discussion it is an effort to indict a ham sandwich.
No, but what you are saying, and have said, is that your sins won't be counted against you, no matter how many times or to what degree you sin.
If righteousness was not possible in the flesh, then why does James 5:16 tell us, “The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” ?
Do you pray with your flesh or with your will and spirit?
“This is why i ask, if we are to maintain our own salvation- then what % of sin is acceptable since we continue in sin until the day we leave this earth?”
The answer (which I think you already know) is that we cannot maintain our salvation any more than we could save ourselves in the first place. All of our salvation is by God’s grace, including justification, sanctification, and glorification.
Colossians 2:6-7 (NKJV)
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord [BY GRACE], so walk in Him [BY GRACE], rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
“Our best works are as filthy rags in God’s sight- so even our best efforts at maintaining salvation are Not acceptable to God as a means of salvation”
I don’t think this applies to those who have been sanctified. That is, a believer’s works of faith are not like filthy rags to God. They are approved by God and are, in fact, the works of God in and through us. Isaiah was describing our own righteousness, as Paul later wrote about the dangers of trying to establish our own righteousness while not submitting to the righteousness of God.
God’s righteousness is imputed by justification but becomes a practical reality in the life of the believer through the ongoing work of God in us in sanctification. And so, when Christ speaks of bearing fruit unto salvation / eternal life. He is describing the grace of God producing good works that are acceptable and approved by God.
Matthew 3:8 (NKJV)
Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance.
Luke 6:43-45 (NKJV)
For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
John 15:4-6 (NKJV)
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 4:36 (NKJV)
And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.
Romans 6:22-23 (NKJV)
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Galatians 6:8 (NKJV)
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
“Our standing in heaven is blameless- perfect- spotless, sinless through the completed redeeming work of Jesus Christ- We are redeemed, made blameless and holy, because of Him”
Indeed.
Romans 4:7-8 (NKJV)
Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven [PAST],
And whose sins are covered [PRESENT]; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin [FUTURE].
Christ dealt with sin once and for all at the cross:
Romans 6:10 (NKJV)
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Hebrews 10:10 (NKJV)
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
I've witnessed the same in my life, friend. This is something very real taking place. Probably like me, your recent sins were of a minor nature, what Paul describes as not deadly (para.).
But there are the deadly ones, that could very well cost us our place in heaven. Paul taught about these as well. It's these we must guard against at all costs - the serious crimes against the Holy Spirit - OSAS taken to far will bring destruction to many, and to our country as a whole.
Remember the most important commandment.
Time for bed and prayers...
G'nite. God bless.
Pax vobiscum
What is a person??? Appears you're having trouble separating the soul/spirit from the flesh...
Any idea what happens when a Christian dies??? Your spirit is returned to God, your soul goes to heaven and your corrupted body/flesh goes into the ground to rot...
So why would you think that the righteousness of a person is his flesh??? It is not the flesh that gets saved...The flesh never gets saved...
When a Christian stands before the Judgment Seat of Christ, his body is still in the ground rotting away, turning to dust...You are not your body...
[[He is describing the grace of God producing good works that are acceptable and approved by God.]]
Thank you for all that- lots of verses to ponder- I just want to make a note on the above quote there- We tend to think people who aren’t ‘following God Closely & Visibly” aren’t ‘in the will of God’ and ‘can’t bear fruit at all- or seldom’ but I’ve seen down and out backslidden Christians who nonetheless had a heart for others that put mine to shame- Seen them speaking the word with the ‘dregs of society’ that I couldn’t talk to- or wouldn’t I should say- in my snobbery unfortunately- with all my ‘Christian learning’ I forgot to do ‘Christian living’ while these alcoholic backslidden Christians, being in desperate need themselves- would honestly give the shirt of their backs to anyone that needed it without judging them like i did- True- they are doing harm to the gospel- but I do think God even works in their lives to produce fruit even in their fallen state many times-
I think there are many stages, many levels of spiritual maturity- and sometimes, sadly, we go backwards for awhile- but I think even then God works in lives to produce good fruit- and like i said- perhaps even better fruit than i do many times-
Maybe I’m wrong, but soemtimes that backslidden Christian, helping his heroine addict buddy out on the street- get a meal, or get warm clothing- or helping out when they nod- sitting with them making sure everything is ok- helping them through the tough times etc- when noone else will- I dunno- seems to me they are sometimes walking the walk-
Just something I happened to think of- I know I’m pretty judgemental of others many times- and used to think “Good- they are getting what they deserve- but you know- sometimes they really want to get out but are too scared of doing what it takes (ie withdrawals) and I just think many times there is still a light however dim it may be- that others can still see in their lives too- I think God is still working in their lives- but of course they aren’t getting the increased blessings they would have if they were in close fellowship with Him-
Again, maybe I’m wrong- but even Paul commended the church of Corinth for the good they did in heir carnal state, but also chastised them for the carnality they had fallen into- again, there are all kidns of degrees of maturity and growth- but unfortunately sometimes there is regression into the old nature-life but still God is present-
[[If you believe you are no longer capable of sinning, or none of your sins will be counted against you, what would be the point of seeking forgiveness?]]
The sins committed while on earth affect only our fellowship with God AND affect our lives (ie, if we rob a bank, get caught, we serve time in prison- if we fall into alcoholism, we ruin our health and die early many times- and may lose our families, friends, jobs etc- )
The point of confessing our sins, seeking forgiveness, is to rekindle our fellowship with God our Creator- it has nothing to do with our standing in eternity which has been sealed by the Holy Spirit
It is not a ‘get out of jail free card’ - if we do the crime, we do the time, as it were, while here on earth-
Our ‘get out of hell card’ however (if one wishes to view it that way), is the blood of Christ that finishes sin forever so that we stand perfectly sinless before God in His sight in regards to eternal life with Him in heaven- because we can not ever be good enough to save ourselves- however, we don’t get saved simply to get a ‘get out of hell card’- We get saved because Christ takes the scales off our eyes so we can plainly see that it is all Him- and not of ourselves- like we mistakenly thought it was before we ‘repented’ or had the change of mind about how one becomes born again-
IF My brother keeps sinning against me- our relationship is hurt- BUT- He remains my brother- No matter what His kinship to me biological sense- it is set in stone- the same thing happens when we Accept Christ- We become His children- Sealed - noone able to undo it- not even ourselves-
We can hurt our fellowship with Him, but we can’t break out of the family of God- it’s a permanent situation once we repent and the Spirit seals us- IF the Spirit’s seal can constantly be broken- then it’s a mighty weak seal and Christ’s death is for naught, because our salvation then depends on OUR effort to maintain- NOT on Christ’s finished work of defeating sin once and for all in regards to eternity with God
I think I’ve already addressed this.
By relegating the believers who are contextually the ones being addressed, to being unbelievers, but which is simply untenable not matter how prolix the polemic. As expressed, the same Galatians that Paul said had the Holy Spirit them crying "Abba, Father," were warned as believers,
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (Galatians 5:1)
How can they "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free" if they were not already there, having been delivered from bondage?
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:2-4)
The temptation was to submit to a gospel of salvation by being justified by keeping the entire law, which being circumscribed signified, versus faith in Christ being counted for righteousness, which thus enables and motivates fulfilling righteousness of the law by walking in the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)
Thus "if " these believers gave into to the Judaizers then Christ would then profit them nothing, become of no effect, and they would become fallen from grace. How can they effectually make Christ to be the opposite that He was to them and fall from a state that they were never in, if Christ was never effectually their Savior, and they were never under grace?
Paul proceeds "For we [the same "made us free" in v. 1] through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." (Galatians 5:5) and "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16) But how can they if they had never had the Spirit?
Rather than being lost unregernate souls, in context these were believers who were addressed, who "did run well" but were being hindered from obeying the truth, (Galatians 5:7) and thusa acting carnal, and thus are warned of the dire consequences of believing a false gospel, of denying the faith and thus forfeiting what is obtained.
Likewise in Hebrews, telling the same subjects who were exhorted in Cp. 3 to "hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end" are warned against departing from the living God. You do not depart from something you never were part of.
Likewise the same audience was affirmed as believers, who manifested "things that accompany salvation" (Heb. 6:9) and thus the same were exhorted "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)" (Hebrews 10:23) yet the same are warned of against sinning wilfully, which goes with forsaking the community of faith, Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and thus effectually making the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and despising the Spirit of grace, and thus suffering the vengeance of the Lord who Lord shall judge His people. (Hebrews 10:25,26,29,30)
And which believers are thus exhorted ,
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. (Hebrews 10:35-36)
It is thus contextually untenable to hold that these souls who are exhorted to continue in the faith and warned of departing from it are really not believers.
Only those who bear fruit are those who enter Heaven....Not only to believe but to persevere unto the end...It is not that we believe we can deny Christ (by words or deeds) and lay claim to a future salvation (as those who deny Christ will also be denied), but it the confidence that He will protect us, preserve us, and enable us to endure unto the end and bear fruit unto eternal life.
At least you believe that saving faith is an effectual faith, but this means that no only must you relegate all those who are affirmed to be believers to being unbelievers when the same are warned against falling from grace, and departing from the living God, but it also means that when even a seasoned, tested believer, who treated and was loved as such, later succumbs to temptation and dies in apostasy, then he also must be dismissed as never having been a believers. Which means no one really can be affirmed to be one, which is also contrary to Scripture.
All of which simply does not translate into "once-and-for-all," but that as a believer his status is and will be that he has passed out of the realm of eternal death and into the realm of eternal life, provided that he remains a believer, versus falling from grace, departing from the living God, making Christ of no effevt, to no profit, drawing back into perdition, back into bondage from liberty, etc. . Yet which Scripture clearly warns believers, as believers, against. See post above.
Of course it does, my FRiend, and I would not submit somethig arbitrary without letting you know. Are you intimating this is a black mark against my work? That what I do is not credible? That not being a recognized and published commentaor makes my sense of the meaning of this verse any the less accurate or valuable? Tat I cannot even read the Scripture and validate it to guide me to salvation and sanctification? That I have to come to you for final approval?
I am saying you are using support for the status of believers and forcing a unwarranted conclusion that these can never fall away, contrary to the clear teaching of other texts. If that impugns your credibility then so your insults of my contextual exegesis does the same.
My attitude must be to go wherever the Truth leads, even if that sometimes may mean holding an apparent contradiction in suspension in awaiting more light, then do to violence to a text in order to reconcile with another, or force a conclusion based upon dubious presuppositions. As RCs do with Purgatory.
No, my confirming references tell me that whatever method you are using for exegesis, it contradicts both the plain meaning of the verse, as well as the translation provided by a Greek scholar that has trained me, one who has transslated and published the New Testament Greek.
And my confirming references tell me that whatever method you are using for exegesis, it contradicts both the plain meaning of other verses, and basic rules of exegesis, though both camps claim to be following them. If you are correct, then the clear verses which warn believers as believers against against developing an evil heart of unbelief in departing from living God, from the faith they once held, falling from grace, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, drawing back to perdition," yielding to pressure to deny the faith after conversion so that Paul's labor would be in vain, (Gal. 5:1-5; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39; 1 Thessalonians 3:5) etc, would be a contradiction. But the clear texts must reign over what some insist the Greek must convey.
And could actually come up with a better argument for it, . . .
OK, do it. If you can.
My argument would be this:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:37-40)
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God....For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. (1 Thessalonians 1:4,8)
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)
But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it. (Psalms 94:15)
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (1 Corinthians 10:1-5)
Simply collectively put, and without any appeal to technical considerations, the determinitive will of God means that all the elect which God hath given the Son, be effectual faith in Him, will not be lost, and such are known by their fruits, but which are chastened, as needed, unto repentance, lest they be damned as unbelievers.
Yet the warnings to believers as believers against against developing an evil heart of unbelief in departing from living God, falling from grace, doing despite to the Spirit of grace, etc, are just that but not all who have a measure of the Spirit (which the cloud is typology for) are the elect.
Of course this conflicts with the premise that a seal cannot be broken, but I find this attempt - which I am not advocating - to deal with the texts which warn believers against making Christ of no effect to them to be preferable to simply relegating them as being written to unbelievers.
If faith is NOT the only requirement; how much works is needed to assure that you DO gain salvation?
Thinking that you can confess yours sins to a priest and then say a bunch of Hail Marys is why so many Catholics elected Obama.
Gotta go now.
I’ve been pinged back to the Pin dancing angels thread.
Eph 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: “IN WHOM” also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
According to the verse, the sealing takes place with one who is in Christ sometime after he has believed.
Only those who are in Christ are sealed, there is no salvation outside of Christ. If one can be saved/sealed outside of and away from Christ then there was no reason for Christ to come to earth and die on a cross.
Therefore as long as one CONDITIONALLY remains in Christ he will remain sealed.
Paul said those Christians in Christ at the church in Ephesus were sealed. Yet some years later the church at Ephesus became unfaithful, Revelation 2:1-7. They had left their first love and were fallen. Christ graciously gives them space to repent. Christ commanded them to repent or have their candlestick/church (Rev 1:20) removed. If they did not obey Christ’s command to repent of their sins, they would be removed, God would no longer recognize them as His church.
Therefore being sealed does not take one’s volition away for one can choose to leave Christ and live in sin. Being sealed does NOT mean a Christian can live as he pleases and UNconditionally remain sealed. Those that leave Christ are no longer sealed for one must faithfully remain in Christ to remain sealed. Very simple to understand unless one’s mind has been clouded with the man-made teaching of OSAS.
Revelation 2:1-7 the church at Ephesus that Paul said was sealed (Eph 1:13) had at some time later:
——left their first love, they had left Christ, no longer “in Whom” per Eph 1:13.
——they had fallen. Fallen means their position had changed, they became apostates.
——Christ commanded them to repent. In Luke 13:3,5 Christ commanded “repent or perish”. They would have perished by rebelling against Christ command to repent.
——Rev 1:20 shows that ‘candlestick’ refers to the church. Having their church removed means the church located at Ephesus would no longer existed. Of course they would still meet together at Ephesus as a group but God would not recognize them any longer as His. The removal of one congregation does not mean the church as a whole is removed.
OSAS-ers are simply wrong about what it means to be sealed. Nowhere ever does the Bible teach the sealing is totally UNconditional no matter how the Christian lives. Those who leave Christ (left their first love) are no longer sealed for the sealing can only be found in Christ.
That argumentation is not logical, for the omnipotence of God does not equate to man having no choice but to believe on Christ, and thus to choose to disbelieve. And thus what you are attacking is the prerogative of he omnipotent God to allow man that choice. Or as per the form of your argumentation,
Are you asserting that there is in the created Universe a being who can choose to disobey God, and refuse what He has provided for and Promised, in honor of the sacrifice Jesus made upon the cross? And that the Omnipotent God cannot break his seal (cf. Daniel 12:4,9) as with the seal circumcision signified. (Rom. 2:25; 4:11) You would limit the prerogative and power of the omnipotent God?
The Bible CLEARLY states that one enters into into the salvific hands of God, and that includes me, and warns believers as believers against against developing an evil heart of unbelief in departing from living God, from the faith they once held, falling from grace, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, drawing back to perdition," yielding to pressure to deny the faith after conversion so that Paul's labor would be in vain, (Gal. 5:1-5; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39; 1 Thessalonians 3:5). And thus forfeit what faith appropriated, and thus do despite unto the Spirit of grace by which he was sealed for the day of redemption which he chose to forfeit, making his damnation worse than those who that "knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes?" (Luke 12:48)
I never implied Satan can break the seal. What I have said, and the Bible says, is those who are Christians in Christ are sealed. As long as one faithfully remains in the group Christian he will be sealed. Yet if one falls away from Christ, walks away from the group Christian, the group REMAINS SEALED yet the person who left the group is no longer sealed.
Therefore Satan does not break the seal, people use their volition and leave Christ thereby leaving the only place one can be sealed.
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