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To: mostly_lies
Your question assumes there is a difference between the two.....

Your answer assumes that belief is a result of God's grace, rather than a freely made choice.

And if a person later decides he no longer believes, does that mean that he is no longer saved?

14 posted on 08/26/2019 5:15:59 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire)
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To: PapaBear3625
Your answer assumes that belief is a result of God's grace, rather than a freely made choice.

Again, your answer assumes the two are incompatible. This is an unbiblical assumption. I do not deny that this issue is unresolvable by the human intellect. However, BOTH are clearly and unequivocally taught in scripture. I have learned over the years that when this happens, it is best not to deny one and choose the other to satisfy my logic, but hold both in tension and wait for the other side to make things clear.

And if a person later decides he no longer believes, does that mean that he is no longer saved?,

Your answer assumes he had true faith to begin with, and was genuinely saved, (and that the decision to believe is rooted in the will of man!) Neither of these assumptions are biblically correct. 1 John 2 is an entire chapter dealing with people who claim the true faith (and seem on the surface to possess it), but who are false believers and "fall away"

Verse 19 is the key here : "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

that is: they "no longer" believe because they never really did.
15 posted on 08/26/2019 5:38:41 AM PDT by mostly_lies
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To: PapaBear3625; mostly_lies

Wouldn’t it be that we chose to believe, but the fact that we can choose to and stick to believe be due to God’s grace?

If a person later decides he no longer believes, then he doesn’t follow what Jesus prescribed “he that endureth to the end will be saved”

if one reads scripture, what does Jesus say saves us?

Matt. 24:13
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

Matt 25:31-46 “34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.”

Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) —> note these are HIS own words
1 Pet. 3:20-21: “ It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”
Note — also in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved — so Faith is definitely one of the things needed,

yet as you see above, it is not ONLY faith. Remember — James says “even the demons believe - and shudder” — it is not faith ALONE that saves

Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God’s GRACE. Full-stop.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. — it’s never faith ALONE. Note that the faith brings out fruits in us - our “works” can’t save us, but yet those who faith, those with grace, show it in their works.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)<,li> [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that

He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)

So, we have the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don’t “save us” per se, since it is Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject

The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.


19 posted on 08/26/2019 6:08:40 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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