Posted on 08/03/2019 4:33:25 PM PDT by ebb tide
This point on synechdoche is a very good one, and I'm glad that you brought it up. It *is* synechdoche, because He whom we receive is not mere flesh only (muscle-meat, carne,) in the consecrated Host, not mere blood only (a fluid tissue consisting of red blood cells, lymphocytes, serum, etc) in the consecrated Wine, but the whole, entire and living Christ, Body-Blood-Soul-Divinity, whether under the appearance of bread or of wine.
That's a point I often make when I teach the Eucharist to my students, but I didn't think to use the word synechdoche, which is perfect.
As for the rest: well, he is not thinking with the Eucharistic Lord--- but it's worth discussion.
G'night now, my brother, and God bless.
You miss the point. You have added to what Christ said.
The figure of speech is a representation of believing in Him. Not eating Him.
They look at it and see what isn't there - then teach the falsehood to others.
Having experienced snow blindness, I understand the experience all too well.
Having read your posts for years, it hit me on your last post that you are likely Rome-blind.
I don't know if there is a cure for that - other than being struck on the road to Damascus, resulting in salvation and open eyes.
There are of course other ways... but I don't advise you go down this route.
"Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.
AND
"Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
So figuring out which way He means a particular word or phrase (literal meaning, metaphor, or synechdoche) requires discernment.
It is a good principle to let Scripture interpret Scripture. Accordingly, we rely heavily on the accompanying and subsequent teaching and example of the Apostles in the rest of the NT.
In the issue at hand (calling someone father) we find that the Apostles, multiple times, call themselves and other men "fathers," "teachers," and "masters" or "leaders." You can see this, yourself, by simply using the BibleGateway concordance, or any concordance, and looking up the NT references.
Context is important. And in this case, the context is the frequent use of calling men "fathers", not only as biological begetters of children, but as spiritual leaders, as paternal figures/patriarchs of the faith community, and even as representing their level of seniority and authority in the congregation.
It forces the conclusion that either the Holy-Spirit-inspired authors of the NT deliberately disobeyed and contradicted the Lord in this matter (which God forbid) ---- OR that Jesus was not speaking literally about never calling any man on earth a "father" a "teacher," or a "master."
And Jesus wouldn't have replied, "You think that's tough? What if you saw the Son of Man ascending where He was before?"
Actually, they would. They were offended even by the thought of eating flesh and blood. They did not like even the figure of speech.
And Jesus wouldn't have replied, "You think that's tough? What if you saw the Son of Man ascending where He was before?"
Actually, He would. He made it clear that there were more things to come that would be very difficult to accept, including His death and resurrection and ascention.
The NEXT verse about not eating blood says, "the life is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:11 I think.)
What did Jesus say? John 6 :"Jesus said to them, Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."
The life is in the blood. We drink the blood of Jesus, we have (His) life in us.
Duh.
Oh yeah. There's that little thing called the last supper.
Luke 22
18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes. 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me. 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Not Grape Juice, like some Protties insist.
You remain mistaken or misinformed.
I'm agreeing. It was synechdoche.
If it was a metaphor, as grey_whiskers pointed out, Jesus would have corrected the people when they left him, due to their extreme uneasiness that He was speaking about drinking His blood.
On a similar occasion, Nicodemus asks Jesus whether a man has to literally get into his mothers womb and be born again. Jesus explains that "no," he dosn't mean "born" in that literal way.
But when people interpret Him as meaning His blood is drink, He does not deny it, He reiterates it: My Blood is true drink. Really drink.
HE - GAR - SARX - MOU - ALETHES - ESTIN - BROSIS. KAI - TO - HAIMA - MOU - ALETHES - ESTIN - POSIS.
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Unlike with his "Be born again" image, he doesn't walk it back and say, "No, you don't have to climb into your mother's womb," This time he doubles down: He means it exactly as He said it. .
I've begun to realize that a lot of what the Protestants teach (despite the *claims* of sola scriptura is merely the teaching of men, without even holding a Council of Nicea or of Ephesus.
Rome-blindness
You are correct sir. There seems to be a lot of that on this thread. A bunch of us experienced this blindness at one time. Praise God we dont anymore. 👍😁👊
Don’t accept the Mark of the Beast if you happen to be alive after the Bride of Christ is taken from the planet and 1/4 of humanity dies in the catastrophe which follows. Just let this old doorknob remind you at that time, DO NOT ACCEPT THE MARK when commanded to you.
LOL, the darlness inside you is almost comical, almost. Sadly, you ignore the several passages in John 6 where Jesus tells the crowd that what God desires is to believe on Whom He has sent. Jesus repeats that, but like you the prideful seekers after signs and what they could do to earn eternal life just refused to see. So He did to them what is happening in you, He spoke of spiritual food in carnal terms (those are known as metaphors) and let them drift away in their carnal state. Enjoy your coming ride.
Seriously? As we so often need to remind folks, read the context and the whole passage:
Some further passages:
Now do you see why we teach and believe that?
The phrase "accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Personal Savior" does not appear ANYWHERE in Scripture.
I wanted to establish that fact first.
Second.
I don't see any mention of that catchphrase anywhere, until the Born Again movement in the US, following the publication of Richard Nixon's former hatchet man, Chuck Colson's book Born Again, in 1976.
I conclude that the phrase is a recent man-made invention.
Recent enough, that it post-dates the Bible.
So much for Protestants following sola scriptura as they define it.
It is BECAUSE I knew the phrase didn't exist in the Bible I called you out on it by asking the question.
Incidentally, I was born again in 1976 and I've been reading the Bible daily since 1978 or 1979.
But you never bothered to ask that; you just assumed something about me which is factually untrue (that I'm a Catholic, led by fear to rote repetition of dead works, in the hopes of EARNING salvation. Nope.) The issue with Protestants, on those occasions that they go wrong, is that they quote a verse, but the doctrine they define from it, is based on not actually reading the verse; but on what their teacher or Bible Scholar tells them to think about the verse; often thumbtacking or scotch taping or piggybacking some doctrine ONTO the verse, when the doctrine is only analogous to, or roughly parallel, to the verse, rather than being contained in it.
"Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Personal Savior" (i.e., "the sinner's prayer" and "the four spiritual laws") are among them.
And they neglect other verses, too.
Like women praying with their heads covered; or not adorning themselves with fine clothes, but with good works.
1 Peter 3:4-5.
And don't even get me started on "dispensationalism."
(I've seen far, far more competition over how well women are dressed, almost as a matter of course, in Protestant churches as compared to Catholic ones.)
I think Christians of ALL denominations should pray for one another (Romans 14, read the whole thing.)
This is understandable why the Roman Catholic doesn't view Christ in this manner.
Roman Catholics have it beat into their heads that Jesus is the judgmental Savior Who appears ready to zap the Roman Catholic for every indiscretion whereas Mary is the kind, sweet mother they can run to and ask for things because her mean ol' Son won't listen to them.
It's one of the primary reasons for such Mariolatry in Roman Catholicism.
It may also explain why so many Roman Catholics have fallen for the lie of the apparition regarding wearing a man-made piece of cloth to avoid the eternal fire.
However, IF one reads the Bible one begins to truly understand just how personal the relationship is with Jesus.
He died for us. Consider that. He died for us.
Consider this event regarding the death of Lazarus on how Jesus responded.
This is from John 11 for the Biblically challenged:
10But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him. 11This He said, and after that He said to them, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.
Skipping down a bit... .notice what Jesus says to her regarding belief....the promise of salvation for those who believe.
*******
21Martha then said to Jesus, Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You. 23Jesus said to her, Your brother will rise again. 24Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.
25Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?
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This is her profession of faith in Him in verse 27.....sounds pretty personal doesn't it?
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27She said to Him, Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.
33When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and was troubled, 34and said, Where have you laid him? They said to Him, Lord, come and see.
35Jesus wept.
38So Jesus, again being deeply moved within, came to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone was lying against it
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10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:10-11 NASB
12This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17This I command you, that you love one another. John 15:12-17 NASB
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Still wanna say He's not your personal Lord and Savior?
Well done.
Now there you go again.....bringing logic into the conversation.
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