Posted on 06/30/2019 7:12:34 PM PDT by grumpa
“I Thess. 4:16-18”
That short bit does seem to confuse people at times. Though I’m not suggesting you are confused.
For example, the phrase about the dead rising first... kinda makes it sound like people will be coming out of graves or something Hollywood like that. But I don’t think Paul could be more clear if people read the full chapter that the reason ‘the dead’ are said to rise first is because they are already with Christ.
They are coming WITH Christ, not coming out of the ground TO Him.
God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. There ain’t nothing in the ground but rotten meat.
And Paul’s use of lingo that got translated into the English word ‘prevent’ doesn’t mean today what it meant when first translated. I generally agree with your thoughts on using literal interpretations as much as possible. And I’m sure you’d agree the translations are significant to understand what was meant, literally, by the writer, in this case Paul. Prevent, in English, previously meant more like ‘precede’ - we can’t precede the dead going to Christ, they are with Him now.
“...Revelation 6:9-11”
Yes.
And at the other end of the spectrum from those “slain for the word of God”... even the thief on a neighboring cross was with Him that day in paradise.
Not in a hole in the ground.
Absolutely! I agree. The souls of the dead in Christ will come with Christ and it is their glorified, resurrected bodies that rise up as will those believers who are still alive on earth. The Holy Spirit through Paul reveals to us:
And, yes, we will not precede those who have already "fallen asleep" in Christ. We with our resurrected bodies will be caught up together with them and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Hallelujah!
Um, you’ve got freepmail ...
“...Christ brings WITH him those who have died:”
Yes, another good example of the care needed with literal words like ‘asleep’ - which are now in English and out of context. It sounds like somebody is snoozing. But Paul’s literal meaning is simply people who are dead physically but certainly alive in their spirit body with Christ.
Which, of course, is Paul’s main point - why would somebody want to believe in Jesus and resurrection if His ‘dead’ followers are stuck in the ground somewhere instead of alive in spirit bodies like Christ?
It’s kinda ironic that Paul spent so much time trying to clear up basic doctrine for people, yet the various interpretations of his writings are a source for many confusions today. Not his fault. Partly just the nature of people and language to get things muddled over time. And partly just due to the fact that Paul wrote such a large percentage of the NT that, by the numbers, he is most likely to get misinterpreted.
I like how Paul goaded people to get beyond the ‘milk’ of salvation bits and dig into the ‘meat’ of the existing scriptures and new Christian doctrine.
It’s also an further example of literal English -vs- figure of speech. Obviously he meant not literal milk and meat.
Just got interested in the comments on it. All I know is that when the disciples and people were looking up at Yashua as He ascended towards Heaven an angel appeared and asked why they were looking at Him since He will come back the same way - visually. No secret coming - couldn’t be secret if horns were blaring.
I didn't have to scream and shout in bold you may have noticed)
And of course you do know the word "Rapture" isn't in the Bible.
No worries. Your trust in Jesus means we will meet in the clouds on the way up to meet the Lord Christ in the air (the first heaven, scripturally).
Paul thought the Rapture info to be important enough that he included that teaching with new converts. His passage in 1 Thess 4:13-18 was written to the new believers in Thessalonika so as to comfort them regarding their dead fellow believers. But he had taught the topic to them in person before the letters were sent.
The way the passage in the first letter and the 2 Thess passages read, believing in the Rapture was not an essential dogma for their spiritual nourishment, but it was a mystery revealed to Paul by The Lord Christ and Paul shared that revelation with believers as a means to comfort them and a means to explain OT oblique references to the event.
The Berean believers were scholarly types and search the Scriptures to verify Paul's teachings. What they had was the Septuagint and the Hebraic scrolls. Letters began circulating within ten years of the Cross. These letters were copied and circulated, probably in Greek but also in the local languages (Ethiopic, for instance).
The Rapture will snatch away ALL BELIEVERS, living or dead, for God will bring with Jesus the spirits of the dead to reunite them with actual physical bodies, albeit bodies not subject to corruption. You don't have to believe in the Rapture in order to be snatched away in the event, just Believe in Whom God has sent for your salvation.
The depravity of humanity is growing more gross every day. There is a limit to which God will allow this, and those who teach a pre-Trib Rapture are convinced the level of perversity indicates a soon end to this 'as is' world. From the moment the Rapture happens, the evangelists will know the tiem when Jesus comes a second time to set foot upon the Mount of Olives, for God has revealed in the New Testament (and OT if you study Daniel and Isaiah and Ezekiel) the signs to watch for for that event. The evangelists of the Tribulation period must have an event marking the beginning of the Tribulation, and that is found in the Bible, also. But the Rapture occurs before that seminal event, removing The Bride of Christ, The Body of Christ from Earth to allow the man of sin to be revealed without Holy Spirit restraint caused by those in The Bride.
I can post both pro/con on the Rapture but all it’ll do is create heat with no fire. People choose to believe what they want to believe. To me, it’s not when He comes is >THAT< He comes.
Amen to that. See you in the clouds.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is the last trump of the trumpet, not the last trumpet...The last trump will be at the end of the Tribulation...This trump will be before the Tribulation starts...
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You might notice that in the book of Revelation the church is no longer mentioned after the last verse in chapter 3 and doesn't pick up again til chapter 19...And what do we see at the 1st verse of chapter 4??? It's not a brass section...
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
There was no trumpet...It was a voice, speaking words, as loud as a trumpet...
The voice of God calling out to Christians to come up hither when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled...A picture of the Rapture of the church...
Selah! Hear here ...
4th Hebrew letter Dalet ==> Door
Rev book 4
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
.
I suspect that you are grossly misunderstanding Paul.
Remember, the NT letters are translated from Hebrew to Greek, and then from Greek to english.
Much of the meaning can be lost.
Paul obviously totally rejected the doctrines of Phariseeism, as did Yeshua.
.
We should always be ready to answer those who question why we believe what we do and our answers should be given in gentleness and respect. I'm sure you have arrived at your conclusions on this subject through careful study and so have I. It's no skin off my nose if someone doesn't see things the same as I do but I do have reasons for why I believe as I do.
As for Jesus' appearing (coming to earth) I'm sure you have heard of the term "theophany". It's a visible manifestation to humankind of God. The Old Testament is rife with instances of theophanies (e.g., Adam, Eve, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, etc.). These are some of them from Scripture https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Theophany. There are instances when God appeared in human form before the incarnation or in a way that is tangible to the human senses.
Even after Jesus ascended back to heaven after His resurrection, we are told of times where He did manifest Himself to individuals. For example, the first Christian martyr Stephan when he was being stoned:
Paul spoke about Jesus blinding him on the road to Damascus and hearing His voice and also told of an experience where Jesus taught him personally (see II Cor. 12:2-4). The Apostle John also spoke of seeing Jesus in Revelation 1. So, there HAVE been times where Jesus appeared to people after His incarnation and resurrection and they did not count as THE Second Coming. Jesus told His followers that He was going to prepare a place for them, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." (John 14:3). It is these verses as well as the ones Paul wrote to the churches that in addition to the Old Testament prophecies convinced me there WILL be a rapture, a "catching up" of those who remain on the earth to deliver from the Time of Jacob's Trouble - the Tribulation. The Bride of Christ is spared from enduring Almighty God's wrath poured out upon the ungodly and unbelieving world prior to Jesus' triumphant return as the Conquering Messiah.
Finally, we agree on the major things and those are worth defending strenuously. If it turns out there is no Rapture of the church, then I will endure whatever God has planned because I know I am His child and Jesus Christ is my Deliverer and Redeemer. If there is a Rapture, then you, my friend will rejoice along with me I'm sure.
There is a subtle confirmation that Paul believed and taught the pre-tribulation removal, found in the way he spoke to the Thess believers in the first letter to them, 1 Thess 1:9&10. It is dramatic in the DR version, but profound affirmation in the Greek.
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