Posted on 06/22/2019 3:25:07 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
Eagleone, you’re doing it again; one sentence out of context (to make your point) and ignore what follows. You wrote “The first sentence of the paragraph ...” and bold posted:
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.
The paragraph continues; “But the first scriptural passage which contains the promise of the redemption, mentions also the Mother of the Redeemer.”
Is there a promise of redemption? Yes (Jesus)
Is there a mention of a mother of the redeemer? Yes (guess who)
If there is no support in Scripture....there is NO support in Scripture. To insist otherwise is to ignore the clear meaning of the statement.
As was Gn. 3:15, as was shown you,
The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
The Anglican/Roman Catholic International Commission explains the controversy:
“The Hebrew text of Genesis 3:15 speaks about enmity between the serpent and the woman, and between the offspring of both. The personal pronoun (hu’) in the words addressed to the serpent, “He will strike at your head”, is masculine. In the Greek translation used by the early Church (LXX), however, the personal pronoun autos (he) cannot refer to the offspring … but must refer to a masculine individual who could then be the Messiah, born of a woman. The Vulgate (mis)translates the clause as ipsa … This feminine pronoun supports a reading of this passage as referring to Mary which has become traditional in the Latin Church.
Note that the Neo-Vulgate (Nova Vulgata), the revised Latin version authorized by the Vatican, corrected the error and changed it from ipsa to ipsum in the Latin. (http://reformedapologeticsministries.blogspot.com/2012/02/catholic-misuse-of-genesis-315.html)
• In the Hebrew there is no “the” in “enmity between you and the woman” and it can refer to or include women in general and all women, (Gn. 14:16; Ex. 25:22; Est. 1:17) with the Lord speaking to Eve but including all women.
The approved notes in the official New American Catholic Bible (1970 ver.), while also allowing the Marian view, explains this verse,They will strike…at their heel: the antecedent for “they” and “their” is the collective noun “offspring,” i.e., all the descendants of the woman. Christian tradition has seen in this passage, however, more than unending hostility between snakes and human beings. The snake was identified with the devil (Wis 2:24; Jn 8:44; Rev 12:9; 20:2), whose eventual defeat seemed implied in the verse. Because “the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil” (1 Jn 3:8), the passage was understood as the first promise of a redeemer for fallen humankind, the protoevangelium. Irenaeus of Lyons (ca. A.D. 130–200), in his Against Heresies 5.21.1, followed by several other Fathers of the Church, interpreted the verse as referring to Christ, and cited Gal 3:19 and 4:4 to support the reference. http://usccb.org/bible/genesis/3
• Another Catholic argument is that "spermatos" is not seen elsewhere in Scripture, but what the Catholic does not say is that we will not find it anywhere in the Hebrew, as it is Greek, and in which there is no “her” in the phrase “her seed.” Instead, spermatos for “her seed” comes from the Vulgate by way of a translators choice in the LXX, in which “sperm” is a Greek translation of the Hebrew word for “seed.”
The Septuagint also has the same word, “sperma,” for the serpent and speaks of the "spermatos" of the woman and the "spermatos" of the serpent, while there are only 7 words with two repetitions out of the 17 word sentence which is translated "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;" shi^yth (put/place) 'e^yba^h (enmity/hatred) be^yn (between) 'ishsha^h / na^shi^ym (wife/woman) be^yn (between) zera? (seed) zera? (seed), which illustrates the degree of interpretation this verse is open to.
Moreover, when asked in an interview in 2000 whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, then-Cardinal Ratzinger responded that “the response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53).
He went on to say that, “Everything comes from Him [Christ], as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way. “For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (God and the world: believing and living in our time, by Pope Benedict XVI, Peter Seewald, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000, p. 306
Mary was a co-redemptor only by the logic that any and all instruments of God could be called co-redemptors.
As for your statement," Only the continual union of Mary with grace explains sufficiently the enmity between her and Satan..the perfect preservation of His virginal Mother from original sin..: you can only wish that the Scriptures taught that, since besides believers never being called the seed of Mary, while "the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one," (Matthew 13:38) nor is Gn. 3:15 ever invoked in Scripture as referring to Mary.
Nor do we see Mary being a special object of persecution by the devil. It was not the women whom Herod sought to destroy but the Messianic offspring, nor do we see the devil attacking Mary throughout the wholly inspired written history and teachings of the NT church, or even mentioned after Acts 1, in contrast to others, and the devil has enmity against all that honors God, from His creation which the devil seeks to either destroy or pervert or make on object of worship, to (especially) believers who are washed in the sinless shed blood of Christ, as Mary herself was, and work to serve their Lord.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (1 Peter 5:8)
Sure sounds like enmity to me, and as the seed of the women are believers throughout the ages, then to them it is promised, "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." (Romans 16:20)
And as also shown in this thread at length - with even Catholic sources confirming - the women of Rv. 12 is not Mary.
In addition, a manifest principle in Scripture is that whenever there is a notable exception to the norm among even far less important characters than Mary, then Scripture mentions it. From extreme age (Methuselah), to excess size, fingers (Goliath), strength (Samson), barrenness (Hannah), hearing a speaking donkey (Balaam), a celibate marriage (David and Abishag), prolonged celibacy (Anna), ascetic diet (John the Baptist), the supernatural transport of Phillip, the atypical singleness of Paul and Barnabas, and uncharacteristic duplicity of Peter, and the surpassing labor and suffering of Paul, birth by a virgin (Mary), to Christ being sinless, which is mentioned at least thrice.
However, absolutely zero is stated as concerns Mary being sinless, or for that matter a perpetual virgin, while the evidence weighs on the side of her also being afflicted from the effects of a sinful nature and also having a consummated marriage.
In short, if you want to make Gn. 3:15 refer specifically to a sinless Mary bruising the serpent, then you need to show from Scripture where this is said or shown as doing so, versus the seed of the women being believers, and Christ above all, and with all who obey Him being as His brother, and my sister, and mother.
And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. (Mark 3:33-35)
And who cries, "Abba, Father," (Gal. 3:6) not "Mama, Mother!"
Revelation 8:1-4:
“When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand.”
That is a great visual to me. Our prayers, like smoke, rise up to God.
And thus Francis is indirectly responsible for the greatest conversion of Catholics to Protestantism in principal in the last few years, since as with the latter, for traditional Catholics the veracity and validity of church officials and teaching is subject to their varied judgment of what historical church teaching consists of and means.
Rather than following their pastors as per papal teaching, and the current explanation of RC teaching, they reject the judgment of the majority such who elected Bergoglio as pope, as they also selectively do with Vatican Two, etc. or make such subject to their varied interpretations, including as regards public dissent.
The difference is that for evangelicals historical church teaching is that which Scripture manifestly teaches, while for TradCaths it what they selectively point to as historical RC teaching, although as a varied group some selectively concur with the interpretive "clarifications" of the same by V2.
HMMMmmm…
John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
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If someone does the above; they will NOT be 'believing' something false.
Of course it is. "Hail Mary." If it is simply joining her in prayer, then who is she "hailing" and praising as full of grace? In addition to the usual superlatives directed to her. Hailing and and praising herself? Praying "to" someone means directing prayers to them, addressing them, versus "let us pray." Christ is the only heavenly (and unceasing) intercessor btwn man and God (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 7:25) and we on earth do join Him with our own (inferior) intercessions, yet in so doing we also pray to Him, in praise and exaltation as we see in Scripture, which is nowhere given to created beings.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:8-14)
Catholic Mariolatry effectively puts Mary in there as an object to worship.
|
Therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God. I doubt that T H E S E are going to be very much help. You guys already accept some ill-defined apparition from the sky as Mary; so Satan has got ya prepped pretty well now. |
(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche)
| 1 | Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces. |
| 2. | I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary. |
| 3. | The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies |
| 4. | It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means. |
| 5. | The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. |
| 6. | Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying Himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise Him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life. |
| 7. | Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. |
| 8. | Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise. |
| 9. | I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. |
| 10. | The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven. |
| 11. | You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary. |
| 12. | All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities. |
| 13. | I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death |
| 14. | All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ. |
| 15. | Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination. |
"The Most Holy Virgin in these last times in which we live has given a new efficacy to the recitation of the Rosary to such an extent that there is no problem,
no matter how difficult it is, wheter temporal or above all spiritual, in the personal life of each one of us, of our families...that cannot be solved by the Rosary.
There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we cannot resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary."
Sister Lucia dos Santos
Catholics may not consider it VAIN; but come ON guys; how much repetition does it TAKE to get GOD to HEAR them??
Since you do not 'pray' to Mary; do you TALK to her?
That would be using the PRIVATE button.
I think we all know you're in the room; especially in a thread you started.
Since WHEN?
Catholicism has STRIPPED Joseph of the fundamental privilege of having sexual intercourse with his wife.
What do we do when someone TAKES something personal that wasn't?
When Catholicism can't even obey a COMMAND of Jesus'?
Call no man father...
Nope; she's dead; awaiting the Last Trump like all of the OTHER 'Dead in Christ' folks.
Bergoglio is an imposter; elected By the Power of the Holy Spirit and the collected Cardinals.
Lucy; you gots some 'splainin' to do.
HMMMmmm…
Call no man father.
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