Posted on 06/11/2019 8:45:31 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Well, the earliest Christians congregated in the synagogues, so it seems they must have been considered for a time at least to still be part of the Jewish communities they lived in, even if they were a separate sect.
They also still kept the Mosaic laws as well as Christian practices, so that was probably a big factor. Pagan converts were allowed to dispense with all but a few of those laws, and over time almost everyone in Christendom came from pagan roots, leading to the Christianity we have today.
Jesus is God’s thumbprint pressed into our matter universe allowing the fullness of the God head to have sacrificed itself by the shedding of blood for the remission of our sins. That is why Jesus said” I and and the Father are one”.
To the extent that the fullness of God could have died, it died there on the cross. There is no violation of the First Commandment...it was the fulfillment of it!
> Put in another way, if you were born a Jew but disbelieve in Judaism, are you still a Jew?
I say the answer is a definite “no!”
A word cannot mean two things at the same time. It either means someone who believes or it means something else. As there is no other word for someone who believes in Judaism, and there are other perfectly fine words for genetic/ethnic relationships, I refuse to let the word mean two things at once any longer. This kind of slipperiness of language should be abhorred by anyone who intends to be understood.
“A Jew is actually someone who has a Jewish soul...”
Lol, that’s a new one.
If someone named Adolf had claimed Jews had different souls, I think a lot of people would object to that sentiment.
So, based on your answer, there are many who are born Jews ( especially those living in Israel, with Israeli citizenship and serving in the Israeli military ) who are not Jews then.
In fact, I’d hazard a guess that this would be a huge number who serve in the Knesset.
RE: A Jew is actually someone who has a Jewish soul
Can you define for us, what having a Jewish soul means?
“I find it hard to reconcile these two sentences. How can you possibly convert someone to Christianity while hiding the fact that you believe in Christ?”
Subtlety.
The most impressive way I’ve seen is they move into a Orthodox Jewish neighborhood, live there, work there, go to synagogue there. Sometimes for months or years. Then volunteer at synagogue for whatever. Do a fine job.
Then, after a long while, start sharing their views. There was a recent exposure of this by a couple in NY. When exposed, they moved to Chicago and started over.
This also happens in Israel a fair amount.
The more common approach is the “Jews for Jesus” approach that shows up on college campuses and pretends to be Jewish, until they make their spiel.
They way I understand the link you provided, a person ( born Jew or born gentile ) who follows the law of Moses IS the Jew ( the one with a Jewish Soul ).
Let’s put it in a table format:
1. BORN JEW, DOES NOT FOLLOW THE LAW OF MOSES
2. BORN JEW, FOLLOWS THE LAW OF MOSES
3. NOT BORN JEW, FOLLOWS THE LAW OF MOSES
4. NOT BORN JEW, DOES NOT FOLLOW THE LAW OF MOSES
As I understand it, only #2 and #3 qualify as TRUE JEWS ( the ones with the Jewish Soul ). The rest do not.
This disqualifies a huge chunk of the population of Israel then.
RE: pretends to be Jewish, until they make their spiel.
They would pretend to be Jewish if they are NOT indeed born Jewish. But are they?
What you seem to be saying is this — No Jewish born person who accepts Jesus as the Messiah is truly Jewish.
“Pagan converts were allowed to dispense with all but a few of those laws, and over time almost everyone in Christendom came from pagan roots, leading to the Christianity we have today.”
Actually the Roman Church came in and killed them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect)
Not sure what you read, but the Aish piece does not say what you think it says.
Try this
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/743998/jewish/How-do-you-get-a-Jewish-soul.htm
I think the problem for some is that some seem to object to the term “Messianic Jew”. Some seem to be saying that that is what is deceptive. They are saying if one believes in Jesus, call yourself a Christian not a Messianic Jew.
Kind of odd, because I see your point too. If one is trying to convert another with words, then it can’t be very deceptive, in a sense. But in another sense, I can see the point of those who object to the term “Messianic Jew”. Just call yourself Christian and be done with it.
I’ve always kind of thought that myself. Don’t be half in one religion and half in another. Commit to one. The only reason I (as a Christian) don’t make too much of an issue about it is because many Jews claim you can be a Jew by birth, so by ancestors, but not one in religion, if you don’t practice the faith. Hence the term “Agnostic Jew” which I’ve seen some people (not here but in society) describe themselves as.
So, all of this is to say the term Messianic Jew seems just as acceptable as “agnostic Jew”, so why not? In other words, when Jews decide as a whole that Jews can’t be Jews just by ancestry, then the term “Messianic Jew” should be discarded (just as agnostic Jew). But until then, until all Jews agree the term “Jew”’means more than a mere ancestral indication, then they should just put up with the term. Because I’ve seen many Jews say you can be a Jew just by ancestry, and others who say you must also practice the faith. So it’s not settled.
Hence can’t see much to disagree with about the term “Messianic Jew”. Those are obviously people who believe Jews can be Jews just by ancestry. And who’s to tell them they are wrong? Me? You? Someone else on FR?
Is there a Jewish Pope that can settle the question?
“What you seem to be saying is this — No Jewish born person who accepts Jesus as the Messiah is truly Jewish.”
No clue how you got that out of what I posted.
They can be Jewish or they can be gentile pretending to be Jewish. The result is the same.
The long post above by another poster broke it out well.
1, 2 are Jewish.
#2 is just not a very observant Jews. But still Jewish.
Note sure by what you mean by #3, but if you mean they converted, then they are Jewish.
It’s not hard: if your mother is Jewish at the time of your birth, you are Jewish. If you have an Orthodox conversion, you are Jewish.
Nothing on Earth can change that.
Nothing one does can change that.
Post 65 or so. By the Israeli.
Sorry, 55.
RE: 1, 2 are Jewish. #2 is just not a very observant Jews. But still Jewish.
I think you mean #1 is just not a very observant Jew. BORN JEW, DOES NOT FOLLOW THE LAW OF MOSES
RE: Note sure by what you mean by #3, but if you mean they converted, then they are Jewish
Yes, that’s what I mean. A Chinese or African who converts to Judaism for instance, are considered Jewish.
The issue then is those who are at #1. Whose Parents are both Jewish but are not observant Jews. So, if such Jew became atheists, they are still Jewish, right?
RE: Don’t be half in one religion and half in another.
I’m not sure being a Jewish believer in Jesus makes one half Jew and half Christian.
If you are a believer in the Messiah, why can’t you celebrate the Passover, Yom Kippur, Sukoth and Hanukah? It’s not as if these festivals are in conflict with the New Testament.
The difference is only in the MEANING you put into them. a Messianic Jew would consider the Passover as PERMANENTLY FULFILLED by Jesus, the ultimate Passover lamb. This is simply in keeping with their traditions. Hey, the Apostle Paul, a rabbi himself still went to the Synagogues to worship.
This not a half and half thing. It is in fact a COMPLETELY FULFILLED THING.
“Whose Parents are both Jewish but are not observant Jews. So, if such Jew became atheists, they are still Jewish, right?”
Yes. If he goes east and finds enlightenment with Buddha, still a Jew. Just a bad one.
“Once a Jew, always a Jew.”
https://torah.org/torah-portion/lifeline-5759-lechlecha/
The status of being Jewish is the Covenant of Abraham, and the actor is G-d. Nothing man does (including converting to another religion) can undo the Covenant.
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