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To: Mr Rogers

Jesus does not say “saved.” He references enlightened. They are not the same word or concept.

When you are saved, you are born again. You cannot be unborn.


116 posted on 06/07/2019 11:43:23 AM PDT by ican'tbelieveit
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To: ican'tbelieveit; Mr Rogers
Jesus does not say “saved.” He references enlightened. They are not the same word or concept.

5461. φωτίζω (phótizó) has 11 occurrences.

For example, the saints in Ephesus were enlightened.

  • In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
  • Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
  • Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
  • Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
  • That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
  • The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
  • And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
  • Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


Ephesians, Catholic chapter one, Protestant verses thirteen to twenty,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

118 posted on 06/08/2019 5:29:52 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: ican'tbelieveit; af_vet_1981

“Jesus does not say “saved.” He references enlightened.”

I assume you are now referencing this passage in Hebrews:

““For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened,
who tasted the heavenly gift,
who shared in the Holy Spirit,
who tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age,
and who have fallen away.”

He does NOT just use the word “enlightened. They have “tasted the heavenly gift” - which most likely refers to the gift of salvation (see Ephesians 2). They have “shared in the Holy Spirit” - and we are one based on the One Spirit, who seals us in Christ:

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit...” - Ephesians 1:13

They have “tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age”. And after all this, they have fallen away.

I don’t know how the writer of Hebrews could have been any clearer. It is almost as if he was divinely inspired to describe someone who had genuinely converted and believed, fully!

One can certainly “be unborn”. It is called “dying”.

Calvin was a lawyer in his 20s when he dared to write a book on theology, influenced by Augustine. He should have spent more time reading and studying and praying rather than trying to summarize God. His failure to understand what “election” means drove him to emphasize a couple dozen verse about it over and above many hundreds of verses about faith - and about continuing on in faith!

The Israelites were the Chosen People of God, not as individuals, but corporately - as a group. Being Chosen in the New Testament is similar. Those who meet the preconditions - birth to Jewish parents in the old, birth in the Spirit in the new - are collectively “chosen”.


“(1) Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” (Eph. 1:4; see 1:1, note). Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, “Here is my servant whom I have chosen” (Mt 12:18; cf. Isa 42:1, 6; 1 Pet 2:4). Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect (Eph 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.

(2) Election is “in him…through his blood” (Eph 1:7). God purposed before creation (Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded on Christ’s sacrificial death to save us from our sins (Ac 20:28; Ro 3:24-26).

(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).

(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him....

(b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23)....

...Summary. Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855]

http://evangelicalarminians.org/A-Concise-Summary-of-the-Corporate-View-of-Election-and-Predestination


The problem isn’t the scripture, but Calvin’s wrong interpretation of it. Election is a wonderful doctrine, but Calvin’s understanding of it conflicts with most of the New Testament (and Old).

A few chapters later, the writer of Hebrews says:

“In this confidence let us hold on to the hope that we profess without the slightest hesitation—for he is utterly dependable—and let us think of one another and how we can encourage each other to love and do good deeds. And let us not hold aloof from our church meetings, as some do. Let us do all we can to help one another’s faith, and this the more earnestly as we see the final day drawing ever nearer.

26-31 Now if we sin deliberately after we have known and accepted the truth, there can be no further sacrifice for sin for us but only a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fire of God’s indignation, which will one day consume all that sets itself against him. The man who showed contempt for Moses’ Law died without hope of appeal on the evidence of two or three of his fellows. How much more dreadful a punishment will he be thought to deserve who has poured scorn on the Son of God, treated like dirt the blood of the agreement which had once made him holy, and insulted the very Spirit of grace?” - (Chapter 10)

Also see: https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/hebrews-10.html


120 posted on 06/08/2019 7:51:56 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools)
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