Posted on 03/30/2019 8:12:59 AM PDT by Salvation
Question: I had reason to hope my niece was going to convert to the Catholic faith. But there were so many obstacles the Church set up that discouraged her. She was asked to go to classes, and they told her that her marriage was not valid and she would need an annulment. Further, it was necessary to wait until Easter, etc. The nearby evangelical church set up no such obstacles, and she was able to join at once and be considered a member. I hear so much talk of evangelization today, but I share my niece’s frustration. Can we not streamline this process?
— Name withheld
Answer: There is a kind of appealing simplicity that you describe in many Protestant denominations. But there are problems with the approach that should give us pause. Ultimately evangelization is more about conversion than mere membership. We are summoned to embrace the saving teaching of the Lord and to walk according to it.
Because adults make informed decisions, the Church considers it important to teach them the fundamentals of the Faith so that they can know what it is they are agreeing to when they enter the Church. Although some of the Scriptures portray an almost instant, on-the-spot baptism, the consensus in the early Church shifted to a lengthy, three-year period of instruction (called the catechumenate) prior to baptism. This likely was because of the insight that quick conversions often led to quick departures or a falling away when the true demands of discipleship became known.
Instructions are most insisted upon for those who are unbaptized. In the case of those who are baptized and come from different Protestant denominations, the length and content of instructions will depend on their background. It is up to the discretion of the pastor who discerns with each individual what is needed. It is certainly not required for those already baptized to “wait until next Easter.”
The concerns about a person’s marital status are rooted in the very words and teachings of Jesus himself. He teaches without ambiguity that for a person to marry, then divorce and enter another marriage, puts them in an ongoing state of adultery in the “new” marriage (cf. Mt 5:32; Mt 19:1-9; Mk 10:11-12; Lk 16:18, etc). He adds rather firmly, “What God has joined together, let no one divide” (Mt 19:9).
It will be further noted that when the Lord was evangelizing the woman at the well, he brought her to a moment of conversion, and she asked for the gift of faith. But the Lord Jesus saw fit to first raise with her the fact that she had been married five times and was now living with a man outside of marriage. Her conversion would not be complete or adequate until she was willing to live chastely. Then the graces could flow.
For reasons of their own, many Protestant denominations have decided to practically overlook such passages. But the Catholic Church takes the Lord’s teaching on these matters rather seriously, as he clearly intended that we should. In some cases, after an investigation based on evidence, the Church may use its power to bind and loose, to indicate that the previous marriage was not “what God has joined,” and it recognizes the first marriage as null. A person’s current marriage then can be blessed and recognized. But we simply cannot set the Lord’s words aside as if they were of little importance.
Thus some conversions to the Catholic faith will take some time to be faithful to the teachings of the Lord and the nature of true conversion. It is worth the diligence required.
“Annulments are not granted on demand. Annulment is available only if the marriage was initiated improperly:”
Unless your name is Kennedy. Then the RCC is happy to grant you one provided enough cash changes hands.
L
I believe Jesus words at the institution of His Supper started He was making a new covenant in His Blood.
Personally I enjoy these long threads; it always results in me learning more about theology and history, if for no other reason than to disprove what’s being thrown at us.
(And I’ll also note that when I post threads that are Protestant-based and critical of Catholicism, the REEEEEEs I get can be seen from space.)
Thankfully, becoming a Catholic and becoming a Christian are not the same thing.
“I know there are Catholic caucus threads that get maybe 15 replies: max.”
And half those are from one poster...
You’d have thought that he’d have appreciated all the attention we bring to how terrible his Pope is.
You mean the only collection of 75 or a hundred ways, because Evangelicalism certainly isn't just one way, because there isn't just one kind of Evangelicalism.
How long do you think we should wait without replies before we just declare victory and wait for the next thread where we’ll just do this all over again?
"Belief in his promises"? Like when he said you have to eat his flesh and drink his blood to have his life within you? Doesn't that require some obedience on our part?
How about when he told his Apostles "whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you retain, they are retained"? Sounds like a grant of authority to me.
Or the most important one, "You are 'rock' and upon this 'rock' I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it". That's a grant of authority right there.
All the answers are in the Bible, huh? I've read the Bible. It's a Catholic book. We collected it and we preserved it, as even Luther admitted.
“Victory”? Why don’t you guys argue over baptism or church authority or sovereign grace or any of the thousand other things you are divided by. It’s hilarious, and sad, that the only thing you all agree on is (a) Catholics are wrong; and (b) When in doubt, see rule (a).
So I ask the priest, ‘If Purgatory is GOD’s way to cleanse you finally, do you think it right to believe you can buy your way out of the judgment or work your way out of the judgment by reading the rosary enough times to nullify it, or wear a Talisman that negates the judgment penalty?’
“How long do you think we should wait without replies before we just declare victory and wait for the next thread where we’ll just do this all over again?”
I understand your point.
Once they have asserted the things they were told, and they are not accepted because they are false, they disappear.
But...
The only victory is His - when people turn from religion and ritual to faith in Him alone, and with it eternal life.
I wish this for them all.
They won’t find it in ritual, nor works, nor mass, nor Mary.
Those alone won’t stop a trip to hell.
Eternal life isn’t in a wafer.
It is in Him alone.
It is up to God to open eyes and hearts, as you know.
But we’ve proven that Roman Catholicism is in direct violation of the teaching of the Apostles, or at least have proven it to the point that everyone else ran away instead of answering.
Welcome to the game, friend.
I’ll take this one at a time.
“”Belief in his promises”? Like when he said you have to eat his flesh and drink his blood to have his life within you? Doesn’t that require some obedience on our part?”
Reply: Jesus said those words BEFORE the institution of the Lord’s Supper; it is more than likely that they are meant metaphorically here. But beyond that, if we are to believe in God’s promises that He gives us life in the Body and Blood of Christ, it is not obedience but faith that receives them.
“How about when he told his Apostles “whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you retain, they are retained”? Sounds like a grant of authority to me. “
Reply: AMPU has a different reply; being confessional Lutherans, Mom MD and I do believe in the authority of the pastoral office (With the emphasis that the pastor exercises this authority on behalf of the congregation, because the keys were given to the Church as a whole) to declare the forgiveness of sins to those who repent and to withhold forgiveness from those who are unrepentant.
But this first does NOT mean that Roman Catholicism has Apostolic authority, especially since Roman Catholic doctrine is in direct contradiction to Apostolic teaching. Second if anyone who exercise the office of the keys intentionally declares forgiveness to an unrepentant sinner or withholds forgiveness from a repentant sinner, he is in violation of the Word of God and therefore loses all authority.
“Or the most important one, “You are ‘rock’ and upon this ‘rock’ I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”. That’s a grant of authority right there.”
Reply: The Apostle Peter himself says in 1 Peter 2:4-8 that the Rock is Christ.
And again, it does NOT prove that the church Jesus founded is Roman Catholicism. If Roman Catholicism teaches in contradiction to what the Apostles taught, then Roman Catholicism has forfeited any right to be called any kind of church, much less any ‘one true church.’
“All the answers are in the Bible, huh? I’ve read the Bible. It’s a Catholic book. We collected it and we preserved it, as even Luther admitted.”
Reply: Good ole Roman Rooster, thinking that his crowing makes the sun rise.
The New Testament in Scripture contains the teaching of the Apostles. You should be paying attention to what the Apostles taught because it is identical to what Jesus taught, not brag about what your currently-hopelessly-corrupt-and-manifestly-heretical organization did in the past before it became hopelessly corrupt and manifestly heretical.
Eternal life isn’t in a wafer.
It is in Him alone.
It is up to God to open eyes and hearts, as you know.
***
I’ll agree to disagree about the efficacy of the Lord’s Supper at the moment and just say that your post is correct.
Even the most hard-headed and traditionalist of Lutherans would agree that taking the Lord’s Supper without faith does nothing except to harm a soul as Paul writes in 1 Corinthians.
Faith in the undeserved kindness of God, also known as grace, is the only thing that saves.
The Lord has promised that his Word will not return empty. Perhaps in eternal life we will learn what effect the Word of God on this thread had.
If Rome has the power to grant indulgences, why doesn’t Rome just free all souls from Purgatory immediately out of mercy?
Who would want anyone to suffer if they can get the same result of perfection without suffering?
Silly Romans!
Indulgences are just one more made up religious work, used to fundraise and build earthly buildings.
When you become a Catholic and quit being an all-knowing snarky Protestant that does a hell of a lot of copying and pasting things you know about come back and we can discuss Catholicism.
And as you all have proven Catholicism isn’t only one way or for example you would be on your knees kissing Bergolio s ring as your own teachings require
I enjoy the honest back and forth that both teaches and allows us to sharpen the defense of sound doctrine. I pray that some who are honestly searching for Truth are exposed to it.
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