Posted on 09/17/2018 11:01:08 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
REALLY??
You've not DEFINED 'heresy'!
I call the following HERESY.
Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.
What do YOU call it?
I'll only need ONE word from you:
Yes or No.
Is the following in force today or not?
"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours."
--Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)
Oh heck; just whomp away right now!!
I meant EMNITY; not amity!
Uh...
..practice of decades?
OH?
Well SOMEONE sure did; back in the day!
You need to re-read his post and mine.
I didn't say that he said there were tons of FR Prots who called him a Nazi.
Try again. None the less, you don't deny that there were some who did, do you? Your ping list is a good place to start for those who did.
If they did, then provide the links to said comments.
And I am pinging them for besmirching their names without proof.
But though we know who is in the Church, but we do not know who is not in the Church.
For instance, we know that every baptized person is in the Church (that includes you and all other FReepers in this discussion, if they are baptized); but we also know someone can have a "baptism of desire" and we don't know who that would be.
We know by name,for instance, that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Elijah are in heaven; they could only have been saved by Christ; therefore they must have been implicitly members of His Church.
That is exactly why the Catholic Church have never stated as a doctrine that any named person is in hell. Only God can judge whether there was an implicit "baptism of desire" in the heart.
Even unbaptized babies' souls, at their funerals in the Catholic Church, are commended not to hell but to the mercy of God. We leave that up to Him.
What did Mary ever tell anybody to do? Here's a direct quote: "Do whatever He tells you."
Do that, and you're saved.
+1
What did Mary ever tell anybody to do? Here’s a direct quote: “Do whatever He tells you.”
***
...
WHAT.
Tell me, do you know where that line in Scripture is, and who it’s being spoken to?
.
And unless you define salvation as "having 6 amazing stone water pots filled with great wine," the quote has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
Look at ALL the prophecies about Christ in the OT and the NT. Every one of them is (in the immediate sense) addressed to somebody else "about" something else.
Just to pick the most famous one: (Isaiah 7:14) Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Who he's talking to: Ahaz, king of Judah
Immediate purpose of the prophecy: Isaiah counsels King Ahaz to trust in God and not to form an alliance with the Northern Kingdom to oppose Assyria
Sign that this prophecy about Assyria is true: a maiden ("almah") will give birth to a son, and she will call his Emmanuel. (A polygamous king's youngest, newest wife was called "the almah.")
When: sometime around 732/731 BC.
Meaning: Did Ahaz know that the principal meaning of this prophecy wouldn't occur until 700+ years later and would refer to the Messiah and to the Mother of the Messiah? No. He didn't even believe it back then, because he blew off what Isaiah told him.
Did Isaiah know that the underlying meaning would unfold in 700+ years? Hard to say. Th NT writers quote it as a proof of Christ.
That simply illustrates that prophecies rarely have just one meaning; and the greater meaning is not to be understood carnally, but spiritually.
When Mary says "Do whatever He tells you," buddy, she's talking to YOU. More about Mary, the Mother of the Messiah, our mother:
"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring -- those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." Revelation 12:17 Her other offspring --- the other children of Mary--- are defined as "those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."
Don't be undiscerning about who are her children and who her message is for.
In the spiritual sense she’s saying it to everyone.
***
PROVE IT. Using an entirely different example is not proof unless you have Scripture to back up your interpretation.
For the love of won ton soup...
Guess that's another thing you can whomp over the heads of the Freepers that insist Martin Luther is in hell, right?
I told you I could send you the links in response to you who said I have never seen a Catholic at this site who said Protestants are not Christians
Then when shown statements that expressed just that you still respond "If you can find one dumb in-DUH-vidual who did say that (and since you have extensive archives, perhaps you will find that errant FReeper who is guilty as charged)
And implicitly charge me with bluffing or lying, and now demand exact quotes and who it was, which i had already offered to provide via the links.
And did send them once I saw that you wanted them. We are not to carry debates from thread to thread, which would likely be the result of publishing the actually links, and or unnecessarily creating a firestorm due to the public exposure, and thus the PM was the best way.
You seem to be asking me to (1)believe on faith that unidentified people who insulted you at some unidentified time are Catholic. (2) read known Catholics' minds to see if their words inferred more than they actually said, and then (3) select the worst possible interpretation, one which portrays Catholics damning Protestants to hell.
Meaning you suspect I was bluffing or lying, which i was not, while you moved the goal posts, since your original post that I responded to was "please send links identifying those Catechism-rejecting Catholics who say non-Catholics who profess Christ are not Christians," and when that was offered, you added "Protestants are all going to hell." And then by requiring exact quotes, which is a stacking the deck since as you well know, one can clearly say something without explicitly stating it (to wit, Jesus is God)
And since the statements include those that state that Protestantism is a false religion, who reject Christ, and that one cannot be saved as such, then such RCs are saying "Protestants are all going to hell."
Go over your vast trove of menace and muddle with a finer-tooth comb. Name names (FReepernames) and produce evidence, not inference.
You got evidence at 09/18/2018 5:17:44 PM PDT, both in explicit statements that Protestantism is a false religion, absolutely alien to Christianity, a bizarre and false religion, a mass of sheer rot, a heretical brand of Christianity, who completely reject Christ, as well as otherwise expressing the same. Now you can either admit it or attempt to engage in spin in order to excuse them.
"there never has been a bit of anti-protestant bigotry by Catholics here"
I never said that.
I never said you did, but that was added as a testimony to the "see not evil" eyeglasses that you indicate you see thru, and the exculpation of those statements as expressing what you claim you never saw would affirm that, and example a Catholic double standard.
Not heresy at all. What did Mary ever tell anybody to do? Here's a direct quote: "Do whatever He tells you." Do that, and you're saved.
That is not a command to serve Mary, much less the Mary of Catholicism . But "Do whatever He tells you" is sound counsel.
http://www.fellowshiptractleague.org/tract_pdf/english/119.pdf
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