Posted on 08/11/2018 10:24:01 AM PDT by Salvation
...Carving?
Flat wrong for 2,000 no matter how much unregenerate Catholic squawk about it, and engage in argument by mere assertion. 1.
John 3:3 -7 nowhere mentions baptism, and instead, as is characteristic of John, the physical and the spiritual are set in juxtaposition:
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:4-5)
"Born of water corresponds to the mention of physical birth by Nicodemus. Likewise that which follows,
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)
Thus there are only two kinds of birth, of water and the Spirit. of flesh and Spirit
Moreover, while recording that the disciples baptized, John nowhere teaches it saves, but constantly teaches the believing (which effects obedience) saves.
2. While Acts 2:38 promises regeneration to souls if they would repent/believe and be baptized in the name the Lord Jesus, Acts 10+15 reveals that it is the faith behind baptism that purifies the heart. In which lost souls heard the gospel, and were promised forgiveness if they believed, and which they manifestly did, and then were baptized, God having purified their heart by faith.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we ? (Acts 10:43-47)
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)
Thus previously lost souls (Acts 11:14,18) were born again before baptism. Which is not a contradiction of Acts 2:38, but its explanation. For since baptism properly requires and expresses faith, so the promise of the Spirit is made to those repent and are baptized in identification with their Lord Jesus, since this would require faith and evidence it.
The promise is not that the act itself of baptism effects regeneration, nor by proxy faith as in heretical Catholicism , but receiving the promise is contingent upon obeying the command, which requires repentance, which means believing.which innocent infants cannot choose to do (nor need to), and are never commanded to, or shown being the subjects of, versus those who could comprehend and believe. .
3. .If the act of baptism effects regeneration then all those whom Rome validly baptized were born again. Which is absurd in the light of their characteristic absence (which i for one, can well attest to as a former weekly mass-going devout RC) of the profound basic transformational changes in heart and life that true Biblical regeneration effects. And which multitudes of evangelical converts from Rome can testify to. .
Thus presenting all those whom Rome has baptized as being born again Christians, even if excused as fallen ones (one must Biblically "front slide" before he "backslides") makes a mockery of Biblical regeneration.
Parroting or posting propaganda will not change that. The End.
Baptism is being born again in Christ. Try your brainwashing on someone else. It really gets old. You sound silly.
Guys, the mod has already yelled at me today for getting too into it on religion threads. Learn from my mistakes and settle the personal stuff before the thread gets locked, please?
One of the key purposes is to give the new believer an opportunity to publicly tell the story of how God lifted them out of their sin-debt and hopefully inspire others to come to God, through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Wow - that’s some nice eisegesis. Bathed in regeneration and THEN was baptized. Do you have any support that this modern english usage of the word “bath” (e.g., sunlight) is even valid in ancient greek as you assert?
I can’t help but notice that every time I post some scripture, your response is “but that’s not what it means... it really means xyz” which is always some sort of rationalization that it really doesn’t mean what it says. “Regeneration happens thru belief and then we are baptized...After we are bathed in regeneration...” Of course Titus doesn’t make it one thing after the other... the bath itself IS regeneration.
I don`t know if infants should be Baptized or not but i know a lot of people who were baptized as children and many of them hates the word GOD.
So infant Baptism must not save.
Wow false conclusion there. “I know a lot of people who heard the gospel and accepted it, and now many of them hate the word God. So hearing the gospel and accepting it must not save.” See, sounds like of silly when you put it that way, eh?
1 Peter 3:21.
The question was “How do you USE a baptism?”
My answer was about the “purpose“ of baptism and was based on my personal experience- “How do I use...”. I have no scriptural support for the stated purpose - only the effect I have seen baptisms have on unsaved (and saved) people who witnessed the testimony of the new believer.
The REASON we baptize is because we are commanded by Scripture to do so.
WoW??? I gave two biblical examples where regeneration comes before water baptism...
the bath itself IS regeneration.
Just as the scripture says, we are bathed (washed) in (of) regeneration, NOT WATER...
Regeneration is a Spiritual rebirth...A Spiritual rebirth doesn't wash anything, except in a metaphorical and spiritual sense...Such as bathed in the sunlight...
Resorting to mere argument by assertion, even in response to what was just refuted in lieu of an actual argument (when not pasting pilfered polemics), is what is old, and makes you look much worse than silly. Bye.
You did give two examples (though Acts 8:37 is presumably not authentically in the Bible). But that’s your problem - you’re taking examples and trying to use them to explain away the teaching ABOUT baptism; rather than taking the teaching about baptism and seeing how the examples demonstrate it.
And in this case, you’re using two examples to say “see, here are times people were regenerated apart from baptism, therefore Baptism can’t regenerate,” and try to explain away the verses that explain what baptism is and does. You cannot develop a complete set of understanding through examples alone unless your examples cover every possible scenario. (”For example is not proof.” - Jewish proverb). Fortunately, we have plenty of Biblical instruction on what Baptism is and does, such as:
Cleanses you from iniquity, gives you a heart of flesh rather that of stone. Ezekiel 36:25-33
Makes you a disciple of Jesus. Matthew 28:19 (with teaching)
Forgives your sins. Acts 2:38 (With repentance)
Gives you the Holy Spirit. John 3:5, Acts 2:38.
Joins you with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Romans 6:2-5, Colossians 2:12.
Washes the Church and makes her holy. Ephesians 5:25-26
Clothes you in Christ. Galatians 3:27.
Regenerates you. Titus 3:5.
Saves you. 1 Peter 3:21
So (even setting aside Titus) unless you believe you can be forgiven, joined to the death and resurrection of Jesus, clothed in Christ, and saved, and NOT have that be regeneration, well then I guess I don’t know what to say.
And of course we fully acknowledge that God can do whatever he wants, and sometimes for His reasons He will depart from the usual order of things. Note that the Apostles were rather shocked at the occurrences of Acts 10. But none of the examples can negate the teaching on what Baptism is and does.
See, sounds like of silly when you put it that way, eh?
I say it is premature and just a waste of good water.
1 Peter 3:21.
not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
I would imagine an infant already has a clear conscience.
1 Peter 3:21.
not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
I would imagine an infant already has a clear conscience.
Doubtful. “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” Psalm 51:5.
Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Romans 14:12
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
There is no way that an infant could give an account for himself.
Genesis 8:21
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Matthew 18:3
3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Jeremiah 3:25
We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.
“First, our spirits did not come from our parents but from God.”
Also these passages indicate very strongly that the sin started in our youth, not as an infant.
Either ONE of these two groups is mostly right, or BOTH groups are mostly wrong. Neither group has a monopoly on truth.
It's been nearly two weeks since the last post in this particular debate.
I don't agree with a single aspect of the previous post's nine points and I decided not to let these errors be the last word(s). Maybe someone will see my response (sent to myself) and be persuaded to see something new. I hope so. Maybe someone will reply and have "the last word." I don't care. I just could not let error go unattended, even if my response just ends up in the ether.
1. [Baptism] Cleanses you from iniquity, gives you a heart of flesh rather that of stone. Ezekiel 36:25-33
This is the washing Paul wrote of in Eph. 5:26 and Titus 3:5. Jesus had this very promise in mind in John 3:5. What was figuratively described in Ezek. 36:25 is explained as literal in vv. 26–27. The gift of the “new heart” signifies the new birth, which is regeneration by the Holy Spirit (cf. 11:18–20). The “heart” stands for the whole nature. The “spirit” indicates the governing power of the mind, which directs thought and conduct. A “heart of stone” is stubborn and self-willed. A “heart of flesh” is pliable and responsive.
The external restoration must be preceded by an internal one. Ezekiel's prophecy refers both to outward cleansing by a ceremony and to inward, spiritual cleansing. The change in their condition must not be superficial, but must be based on a radical renewal of the heart. Then the heathen, understanding from the regenerated lives of God's people how holy God is, would perceive Israel's past troubles to have been only the necessary vindications of His righteousness. Thus God's name would be "sanctified" before the heathen, and God's people are prepared for outward blessings.
The “sprinkle ... water”--phraseology is taken from the law; namely, the water mixed with the ashes of a heifer sprinkled with a hyssop on the unclean (Nu 19:9-18); the thing signified is the cleansing blood of Christ sprinkled on the conscience and heart (Heb 9:13, 14; 10:22; compare Jer 33:8; Eph 5:26).
Ezekiel profoundly proclaims the doctrines of conversion and spiritual life. He includes forgiveness (v. 25), regeneration (v. 26), the indwelling Holy Spirit (v. 27), and the responsive obedience to God’s law (v. 27). These are all clearly presented as he prophesies Israel’s conversion. As a nation, they will truly know their God (v. 38), hate their sin (vv. 31–32), and glorify their Savior (v. 32).
2. [Baptism] Makes you a disciple of Jesus. Matthew 28:19 (with teaching)
The imperative (i.e. the command to make disciples, to call individuals to commit to Jesus as Master and Lord) explains the central focus of the Great Commission, while the Greek participles (translated “go”, “baptizing”, and “teaching” [v. 20]) describe aspects of the process. In other words, "Go, baptize, teach" are participles modifying the imperative verb "make disciples."
When one is baptized into the name of the Trinity, he professes to acknowledge and appropriate God in all that he is and in all that he does for man (n.b. infants can’t do this). The new believer recognizes and depends upon God the Father as his Creator and Preserver; receives Jesus Christ as his only Mediator and Redeemer (along with His pattern of life); and confesses the Holy Spirit as his Sanctifier and Comforter.
3. [Baptism] Forgives your sins. Acts 2:38 (With repentance)
Baptism does not produce forgiveness and cleansing from sin. The verse does not imply that people can be saved without having faith in Christ as Savior, because the need to believe is implied both in the command to “repent” and also in the command to “be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” The willingness to submit to baptism is an outward expression of inward faith in Christ (cf. 1 Pet. 3:21).
The gospel can be summarized in different ways. Sometimes faith alone is named as the one thing necessary for salvation (see John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Rom. 10:9; Eph. 2:8–9), other times repentance alone is named (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 17:30; 2 Cor. 7:10), and sometimes both are named (Acts 20:21). Genuine faith always involves repentance, and vice versa. Repentance includes a change of mind that ends up trusting God (i.e., having faith).
In Acts, the abbreviated form emphasizes the distinctive quality of believer’s baptism, for Jesus is now included in a way that he was not in John’s baptism (19:4–5). “For the forgiveness of your sins” does not mean that baptism effects forgiveness. Rather, forgiveness comes through that which is symbolized by baptism (see Ro 6:3–4; 1Pe 3:21).
In NT times baptism so closely followed conversion that the two were considered part of one event (e.g. Act 2:38). So, although baptism is not a means by which we enter into a vital faith relationship with Jesus Christ, it is closely associated with faith (see 1Pe 3:21). Baptism depicts graphically what happens as a result of the Christian’s union with Christ, which comes with faith—through faith we are united with Christ, just as through our natural birth we are united with Adam. As we fell into sin and became subject to death in father Adam, so we now have died and been raised again with Christ—which baptism symbolizes.
4. [Baptism] Gives you the Holy Spirit. John 3:5, Acts 2:38.
The phrase born of water and the Spirit in 3:5 refers to spiritual birth, which cleanses from sin and brings spiritual transformation and renewal. Water here does not refer to the water of physical birth, nor is it likely that it refers to baptism. The background is probably Ezek. 36:25–27, where God promises, “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean. . . . And I will give you a new heart. . . . And I will put my Spirit within you.”
Regarding John 3:5 and “born of water and the Spirit”, Jesus referred not to literal water here but to the need for “cleansing” (e.g., Ezek. 36:24–27, see above). When water is used figuratively in the OT, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with “spirit” (Num. 19:17–19; Ps. 51:9–10; Isa. 32:15 44:3–5 55:1–3; Jer. 2:13; Joel 2:28–29). Thus, Jesus refers to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (cf. Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5), required for belonging to his kingdom.
There are three outstanding conversions in the Book of Acts. They have been given to us as illustrations. There is the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch, the conversion of Cornelius, and the conversion of Paul. These three men are representatives of the three families of Noah: the son of Shem, the son of Ham, and the son of Japheth. In each of these three cases, the Word of God was used by the Spirit of God for their conversions. God’s method seems to be the Word of God, used by the Spirit of God, given through a man of God (following the Great Commission). I believe that our Lord, saying that one must be “born of water and of the Spirit”, referred to the Spirit of God using the Word of God. Without this, Nicodemus could not enter into the kingdom of God.
5. [Baptism] Joins you with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Romans 6:2-5, Colossians 2:12.
It is not, "By baptism we are buried with Him into death," which makes no sense at all; but, "By baptism with Him into death we are buried with Him"; in other words, "By the same baptism which publicly enters us into His death, we are made partakers of His burial also").
Baptism pictures what has already taken place when a person repents and trusts the finished work of Christ on the cross. Baptism symbolizes being buried with Christ (submersion under water) and being raised to new life with Christ (emergence from water). Baptism symbolizes the person's union with, and incorporation into, Christ by the action of the Holy Spirit. Hence, they now have the power to live in newness of life.
The preposition used (baptized “into” (Gk. heis - as in Matthew 28:19) denotes inward union, participation; not in order to bring about the union, for that has already been effected. Compare 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13, 27.
6. [Baptism] Washes the Church and makes her holy. Ephesians 5:25-26
So we have seen the past, present, and future. Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it (the past). He is sanctifying the Church (not the RCC, but His Church) with the washing of water by the Word - present. And in the future, the Church will be presented to Him as a radiant bride with all sin removed. Then the Church will be holy and unblamable.
7. [Baptism] Clothes you in Christ. Galatians 3:27.
The language of “putting on,” as used of clothing, suggests taking on a new life and purpose through being spiritually united to Christ.
This is not water baptism, which cannot save (see notes on Acts 2:38; 22:16). Paul used the word “baptized” in a metaphorical manner to speak of being “immersed,” or “placed into” Christ (cf. Gal. 2:20) by the spiritual miracle of union with him in his death and resurrection.
Salvation results in the believer’s spiritual union with Christ. Paul was emphasizing the fact that we have been united with Christ through salvation. Positionally before God, we have put on Christ, his death, resurrection, and righteousness. Practically, we need to clothe ourselves with Christ before men, in our conduct (Rom. 13:14).
8. [Baptism] Regenerates you. Titus 3:5.
Salvation comes not because of our works (!!) but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. Some have understood this as saying that baptism (“the washing”) causes salvation. However, in this context human deeds are clearly downplayed (“not because of works”) and the emphasis is on divine action and initiative (“he saved us”). The “washing” described here is the spiritual cleansing, which is outwardly symbolized in baptism.
Salvation is not achieved by human effort or merit but it comes through God’s mercy alone (see Da 9:18; Eph 2:8). “Washing of rebirth” is a reference to new birth which baptism symbolizes. It cannot mean that baptism is necessary for regeneration, since the NT plainly teaches that the new birth is an act of God’s Spirit (see, e.g., Jn 3:5) and is not effected or achieved by ceremony. 9. [Baptism] Saves you. 1 Peter 3:21
Peter is not at all referring to water baptism here, but rather a figurative immersion into union with Christ as an ark of safety from the judgment of God. The resurrection of Christ demonstrates God’s acceptance of Christ’s substitutionary death for the sins of those who repent and believe (Acts 2:30–31; Rom. 1:4). Judgment fell on Christ - just as the judgment of the flood waters fell on the ark. (n.b. God sealed the eight into the ark.) The believer who is in Christ is thus sealed by the Holy Spirit in the ark of safety (Jesus Christ) and will sail over the waters of judgment into eternal glory (cf. Rom. 6:1–4).
Baptism symbolizes salvation in that it depicts Christ’s death, burial and resurrection and our identification with him in these experiences (see Rom 6:4). In reality, believers are saved by what baptism symbolizes—Christ’s death and resurrection. The symbol and the reality are so closely related that the symbol is sometimes used to refer to the reality (see note on Rom 6:3–4).
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.