Priest: Tradition must be completely legitimized in order to wipe out the confusion which...

Francesca Romana ^ | August 7, 2018 | Rorate Caeli

[ebb tide]

A Parish Priest: Tradition must be completely legitimized in order to wipe out the confusion which now reigns supreme

H/T Messa in Latino blogspot

Received from a reader of Messa in Latino and published with pleasure:

“I went to Confession in my parish. The priest who was about 60 years old, said to me “I have been here almost five years and it seems to me that I have never seen you before”.

“That’s true Father. You have never seen me because every Sunday I go to the […….] Shrine where Holy Mass in the Old Rite is celebrated.” (Editor’s note: following the liturgical indications of the Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum).

I expected the usual lecture as had happened when I spoke about it to the Rector of a very famous Marian Shrine. Instead this priest very kindly said to me: “Keep going my son: that is the real future of the Church!” The liturgy of our fathers will save the Church! Keep going and never give up!”

“Father – I replied – why don’t you celebrate the Mass in the Old Rite which you praise so highly?”

The priest: “After my first public celebration I experienced disparagement on the part of my order,  but most of all  I’m concerned that they will send a Protestant pastor here [in the parish] – be patient for a little while longer: Tradition is going be completely legitimized and the  pestilent confusion which is reigning supreme now will be wiped out. Have faith: Our Lady will help us!”                                 

[Source]

Translation: Contributor Francesca Romana  

[Petrosius]

Nope. A Roman Catholic priest says Jesus is brought down from Heaven, not once, but a thousand times and rendered present on the altar.

Jesus in the ONE SACRIFICE is brought down from Heaven and rendered present on the altar. He does not say that he is sacrificed a thousand times.

Unless you're a Roman Catholic priest, O'brien trumps your opinion.

Forasmuch as, under the former Testament, according to the testimony of the Apostle Paul, there was no perfection, because of the weakness of the Levitical priesthood; there was need, God, the Father of mercies, so ordaining, that another priest should rise, according to the order of Melchisedech, our Lord Jesus Christ, who might consummate, and lead to what is perfect, as many as were to be sanctified. He, therefore, our God and Lord, though He was about to offer Himself once on the altar of the cross unto God the Father, by means of his death, there to operate an eternal redemption; nevertheless, because that His priesthood was not to be extinguished by His death, in the last supper, on the night in which He was betrayed,--that He might leave, to His own beloved Spouse the Church, a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice, once to be accomplished on the cross, might be represented, and the memory thereof remain even unto the end of the world, and its salutary virtue be applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit,--declaring Himself constituted a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech, He offered up to God the Father His own body and blood under the species of bread and wine; and, under the symbols of those same things, He delivered (His own body and blood) to be received by His apostles, whom He then constituted priests of the New Testament; and by those words, Do this in commemoration of me, He commanded them and their successors in the priesthood, to offer (them); even as the Catholic Church has always understood and taught. (Council of Trent, Session 22, Doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Chapter I)

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice [emphasis added], in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.(Cf. Ex 13:3) In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.(Cf Heb 7:25-27) "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."(Lumen Gentium 3; cf 1 Cor 5:7_

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. the sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."(Lk 22:19-20) In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."(Mt 26:28)

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross [emphasis added], because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.(Council of Trent (1562: DS 1740; cf. 1 Cor 11:23; Heb 7:24, 27)

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."(Council of Trent (1562): DS 1743; cf. Heb 9:14, 27)

What I have presented is Catholic teaching, not "opinion." Fr. O'Bren's remarks have to be understood in context of this. So please take your false presentation of Catholic teaching by taking his words out of context someplace else.

[Petrosius]

Is that Marine depending upon the person they’re remembering for their salvation??? Keep trying.

Catholics do not turn to Mary and the saints other than to have them pray for us to Jesus Christ, the one source of our salvation. You keep trying.

[ealgeone]

You have a trained Roman Catholic priest who wrote that. No one from Rome has ever said he was wrong.

Besides....in light of current circumstances in Rome how do you know for sure the Catechism hasn't changed??

I guess that's why Rome leaves Jesus on the cross.....yet the NT records He is no longer on the Cross.

[ealgeone]

Catholics do not turn to Mary and the saints other than to have them pray for us to Jesus Christ, the one source of our salvation. You keep trying.

In the link to the thread below, see my #95 post.

https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3677101/posts

[Petrosius]

Where does he say that this is a different sacrifice than the one of the Cross? I have presented official and authoritative statements of Catholic teaching. If you are going to oppose Catholic teaching then at least be honest about it.

[fishtank]

It only happened ONCE.

[Al Hitan]

I guess that's why Rome leaves Jesus on the cross

What are you talking about? Are you referring to this?

[Petrosius]

It only happened ONCE.

Yes, and that one Sacrifice is made present to us--not repeated--in the Mass; this following the instruction of our Lord, "Do this in memory of me."

[ealgeone]

Yep. Rome still has Jesus nailed to the Cross.

[Al Hitan]

Yep. Rome still has Jesus nailed to the Cross.

First off, that image is of a Protestant chapel, not a Catholic church. Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, and Catholics have crucifixes and/or icons of the crucifixion. I guess there are fringe Christian groups who are offended by the crucifix.

Second, do I really need to explain to you that it isn't actually Jesus on the crucifix, but a representation. Nobody is keeping Jesus nailed to the cross.

Finally, the reason Catholics have the crucifix, which seems to offend you, is because we preach Christ crucified. Don't you? If not, you are doing it wrong.

[ealgeone]

First off, that image is of a Protestant chapel, not a Catholic church. Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, and Catholics have crucifixes and/or icons of the crucifixion. I guess there are fringe Christian groups who are offended by the crucifix.

I've not been in a Protestant church that still shows Jesus on the Cross.

Second, do I really need to explain to you that it isn't actually Jesus on the crucifix, but a representation. Nobody is keeping Jesus nailed to the cross.

Yes...I understand that it is really not Christ on the Cross. However, the imagery is there of Jesus on the Cross.

Finally, the reason Catholics have the crucifix, which seems to offend you, is because we preach Christ crucified. Don't you? If not, you are doing it wrong.

If Jesus is crucified, then be sure He's resurrected.

But then again, Rome does keep resacrificing Him over and over and over again per a Roman Catholic priest in the Faith of Millions.

[Al Hitan]

I've not been in a Protestant church that still shows Jesus on the Cross.

It's not my fault you don't get out more. For this one, look up Concordia University Wisconsin chapel. There are many more.

I understand that it is really not Christ on the Cross

Then quit saying he's being kept nailed to the cross.

Rome does keep resacrificing Him over and over and over again per a Roman Catholic priest in the Faith of Millions.

I suspect it is just your misunderstanding, probably purposeful, again.

[ealgeone]

Roman Catholics do keep Him on the cross through their Mass. Jesus died once, a one time sacrifice, for our sins. He is not brought down fro Heaven and rendered present on the Roman Catholic altar as O’brien The dude is a Roman Catholic priest. He should know what he’s talking about.

If you don’t get that aspect of Christianity nothing else much matters.

[Al Hitan]

Roman Catholics do keep Him on the cross through their Mass.

Now your changing your claim, but no, they don't.

Jesus died once, a one time sacrifice, for our sins.

That is some great Catholic doctrine your posting. You are making progress.

He is not brought down fro Heaven and rendered present on the Roman Catholic altar as O’brien The dude is a Roman Catholic priest. He should know what he’s talking about.

Your sentence is garbled, but again, I'm sure the priest knows what he's talking about and that you misunderstand him.

If you don’t get that aspect of Christianity nothing else much matters.

I'm not sure what aspect your are talking about. The Catholic doctrine you posted?

[Al Hitan]

If every Roman Catholic, all 1.2 billion that Rome claims, offered just one prayer a day to Mary, that's 13,889 prayers a second she has to hear, understand and answer.

You presume to know what "a second" is in Heaven.

This puts her on the same level as the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father.

You assume wrongly.

[ealgeone]

>>If every Roman Catholic, all 1.2 billion that Rome claims, offered just one prayer a day to Mary, that's 13,889 prayers a second she has to hear, understand and answer.<<

You presume to know what "a second" is in Heaven.

Well, ok then. I see rational discussion with you is an uphill struggle.

>> This puts her on the same level as the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father. <<

You assume wrongly.

Roman Catholic writers have called her omnipotent. You might want to read up on this.

[ealgeone]

>>Roman Catholics do keep Him on the cross through their Mass.<<

Now your changing your claim, but no, they don't.

Ok. I see you're "that" guy....the gotcha guy.

>> Jesus died once, a one time sacrifice, for our sins.<<

That is some great Catholic doctrine your posting. You are making progress.

It's actually a New Testament doctrine.

>> He is not brought down fro Heaven and rendered present on the Roman Catholic altar as O’brien The dude is a Roman Catholic priest. He should know what he’s talking about.<<

Your sentence is garbled, but again, I'm sure the priest knows what he's talking about and that you misunderstand him.

What is this....radio??

But here's the full statement.

John O'Brien, Roman Catholic priest, The Faith of Millions.

When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors: it is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed it is greater even than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the Blessed Virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time,

the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man—not once but a thousand times!

The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

******************************

Christ is not brought down from Heaven over and over and over again.

His was a one time sacrifice. He does not obey a priest and put Himself on the Roman Catholic altar over and over and over.......

[Al Hitan]

Well, ok then. I see rational discussion with you is an uphill struggle.

That’s pretty funny coming from the guy making an irrational statement, implying time is the same in Heaven as it is on Earth. Not only is it wrong, but it disagrees with Scripture.

Roman Catholic writers have called her omnipotent. You might want to read up on this.

I suppose that is true in your imagination. Only God is omnipotent. Any gifts that people, created beings, have are from God acting through them. That includes the Virgin Mary and all the saints in Heaven, and that includes the miracles done by the Apostles as recorded in Acts.

[Al Hitan]

Ok. I see you're "that" guy....the gotcha guy.

You can call it whatever you want. First you claim Catholics keep Jesus nailed on the cross because of the crucifix. When I point out that crucifixes are used by Protestants, then you change your claim saying we keep him nailed on the cross because of the Mass. It appears you’re “that” guy.

It's actually a New Testament doctrine.

Yes, a great Catholic doctrine.

What is this....radio??

No, it’s a forum on the internet. Do yourself a favor and look up the definition of garbled and it may diminish some of your confusion.

His was a one time sacrifice.

Yes, another great Catholic doctrine. You are really starting to get it. Now, I do understand that there are some on the fringe of Christianity who do not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist at communion. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants believe “it is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ” as quoted from one Protestant doctrine. Yes, we all believe that Christ makes himself present each time the bread is consecrated, as he told us to do it. Don't you?

[CodeToad]

“Catholics do not deify Mary. “

If you “pray to Mary” then you have deified her.