"...visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs --- we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” (Acts 2:10-12)
I'm reading some interesting stuff from a Christian brother, Alvin Plantinga, which I'd like to discuss.
However, if you truly see me as a "sophist" and "intellectually dishonest," as you said, then we have no basis for discussion and I would urge you to stop casting your pearls before a swine like me.
On the other hand, if you are willing to reconsider and give me a reprieve from your contempt, the above verse, plus some thoughts from Plantinga, are what I'd like to look into with you.
That, my brother, is what I would prefer.
"... Arabs: "We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” (Acts 2:10-12)
When the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles in Jerusalem on the first Pentecost, 570 years before the birth of Muhammad, it says they addressed the multi-lingual crowd in such a way that each heard their words in his or her own language. It also says that among the crowd were Arabs. It is a reasonable inference that if they heard the word "God" in their own tongue, they heard the word "Allah".
“What does this mean?” (Acts 2:10-12)
I'm reading a very interesting book called "Warranted Christian Belief," by Alvin Plantinga. As far as I can make out, he's exploring the epistemological question of the relationship between, say "knowing about Christ" vs "knowing Christ" vs "accepting Christian belief." Is it reasonable or justifiable to accept the Christian God without using any of the Christian vocabulary? What if a person knows and loves some true things about the True God, but mixed with some false things, and with significant gaps?
What if this person, impelled by the Spirit, is seeking to serve God but is encumbered with an imperfect knowledge which is fragmentary and garbled?
As far as I can see, a person who, by a movement or inspiration of the Spirit, seeks God, will find Him.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
It is on the basis of God's sovereignty -- His complete freedom to save souls as He desires --- that God can both bring any person to saving faith, and by that faith make the soul entirely His own in merciful love.
This I believe on the basis of His Word:
1 Timothy 2:4
God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Let's talk.
Aside on the Christ-rejecting Duterte in a separate post.
That depends upon what lever you want to operate on. Honest exchange or damage control sophistry.
When the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles in Jerusalem on the first Pentecost, 570 years before the birth of Muhammad, it says they addressed the multi-lingual crowd in such a way that each heard their words in his or her own language. It also says that among the crowd were Arabs. It is a reasonable inference that if they heard the word "God" in their own tongue, they heard the word "Allah".
And just how does this help you in you need to support affirming Muslims worship the same God as Catholics? Apparently you are inferring is that there was the equivalent of Muslims being described here. However, if you are going to try to make a Scriptural argument, then practice what you call "Reading with Context for Comprehension."
For what is left out of your quotes is the preface which states,
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language...Jews and proselytes.(Acts 2:5-6,10b)
This defines the hearers as .Jews and proselytes who thus were there for the feast of Pentecost, not some Muslims basic equivalents.
I'm reading a very interesting book called "Warranted Christian Belief," by Alvin Plantinga. As far as I can make out, he's exploring the epistemological question of the relationship between, say "knowing about Christ" vs "knowing Christ" vs "accepting Christian belief." Is it reasonable or justifiable to accept the Christian God without using any of the Christian vocabulary? What if a person knows and loves some true things about the True God, but mixed with some false things, and with significant gaps? What if this person, impelled by the Spirit, is seeking to serve God but is encumbered with an imperfect knowledge which is fragmentary and garbled?
This is akin to worshiping the unknown God (Acts 17) which i already stated was not a viable argument. Indeed one can be worshiper of God even though they have some aspects of ignorance or misunderstanding. Moreover, it is possible that there are some converted souls in aberrant groups (relative to the deviant nature of them, so that there are more actual believers in Catholicism than Mormonism, yet more in the latter than the JW's...).
However, the statement at issue in Lumen Gentium 16 is NOT addressing Jews or some possible individuals in some group, including worshippers some unknown god which has no definition, but it is addressing a religion as a whole, which theologically defines its god in such a degree and way that it is clear that it is not the god of the Hebrew or Greek NT, and which it attacks.
As far as I can see, a person who, by a movement or inspiration of the Spirit, seeks God, will find Him. It is on the basis of God's sovereignty -- His complete freedom to save souls as He desires --- that God can both bring any person to saving faith, and by that faith make the soul entirely His own in merciful love.
Which again is a vain support for affirming a pagan religion as a whole as being worshiper of the true God, for we are not dealing with a Cornelius, but a whole pagan religion, and which worships a demon!
Thus your further attempt at damage control fails, and if the SBC said what Lumen Gentium said then no RC would allow such attempts as yours to explain it as not affirming Muslims worship the same God as them.