Posted on 06/23/2018 7:48:28 AM PDT by Salvation
You aren’t saying that you do NOT worship Jesus, are you?
You said elders not God. I worship and adore the triune God, Father Son and Holy Spirit and no one else. You forget this passage started with at the Name of Jesus every knee will bow then started talking about bowing to Mary and the saint of the day. I do not worship or bow to any created being.
Amen.
Yes, I bow my head at the mention of His name, although I admit that there were many years during which I had fallen out of this practice.
About 8 years ago, I resumed the practice of signing myself when passing a Catholic church or a graveyard.
Would you have a problem with someone beginning and ending their prayers in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, without touching their forhead, midsection, and shoulders?
My issue is the ritual of crossing oneself when they went by a building.....as if Christ resides within a building. As believers in Him we are the temples where the Spirit resides. We have the Spirit living within us. That’s what I don’t think some understand.
God is not in a box!
Thank you for that history regarding the “Angelus”. I did not know that about this beautiful prayer.
No. We've been told on these threads one must make some type of amends for their sins [presuming you're discussing so called mortal sins]a certain number of Hail Marys or some other type of work is required.
Then, if I understand it, the petitioner must participate in the Eucharist to regain their salvation.
None of this is supported by the New Testament...except we confess our sins to Christ.
The Blessed Mother is the the mother of the Catholic church and our spiritual mother as Jesus asked John to take care of His beloved mother.
She can be the mother of the Church because, as the Church’s Sacred Tradition holds, from the moment of her existence Mary was endowed by God with perfect sanctity. In 1854 Pope Pius IX declared in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus:
We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God.
Pope Pius’s dogmatic declaration was not a nineteenth-century invention pulled out of a hat. Its purpose was to affirm in an official and formal way, as all ex cathedra statements are, a long-existing tradition passed down since the age of the apostles.
Saint Paul wrote that “all have sinned” (Rom 3:23). The context here is personal sin—that is, sin which is done rather than inherited. (Original sin is dealt with two chapters later in Paul’s epistle.) So have all sinned? In general, yes. But there are exceptions—beginning with Jesus himself! Other exceptions could include infants and the severely disabled, since a sufficient degree of knowledge and consent are key requirements for an offense against God. And there are other biblical exceptions besides Christ. Indeed, Mary is not the first woman to be conceived without sin: Eve too, the mother of humanity, was created free of sin—but eventually fell by disobedience. Mary did not fall. “And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name’” (Luke 1:46-49).
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/our-mothers-singular-grace
Prayer, the lifting of the mind and heart to God, plays an essential role in the life of a devout Catholic. Without a life of prayer, we risk losing the life of grace in our souls, grace that comes to us first in baptism and later chiefly through the other sacraments and through prayer itself (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2565). Through prayer we enter into the presence of the Godhead dwelling in us. It is prayer which allows us to adore God, by acknowledging his almighty power; it is prayer that allows us to bring our thanks, our petitions, and our sorrow for sin before our Lord and God.
As the prayers themselves witness, the Church teaches us that we should pray not only directly to God, but also to those who are close to God, those who have the power to intercede upon our behalf. Indeed, we pray to the angels to help and watch over us; we pray to the saints in heaven to ask their intercession and assistance; we pray to the Blessed Mother to enlist her aid, to ask her to beg her Son to hear our prayers. Further, we pray not only on our own behalf, but also on the behalf of those souls in purgatory and of those brothers on earth who are in need. Prayer unites us to God; in doing so, we are united to the other members of the Mystical Body.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/common-catholic-prayers
The Memorare
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee do I come, before thee do I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen.
Never in Scripture is Mary the mother of the church, nor the mother of Christians.
Made up out of pagan beliefs.
No Apostle taught it and it does not appear as a belief during the lifetimes of the Apostles.
Just your personal opinion and belief.
Catholics do not agree with your opinion.
Ha. No friend.
If it was just my opinion, you could easily prove it is in Scripture and produce the belief in history.
You cannot.
A man made document in 1854 means nothing.
Can you show this is an Apostolic tradition before 100 AD??
Would you please post these Scriptures - chapter and verse?
Mary as mother of the church is not supported anywhere in the New Testament. But as a priest you should know that.
Again, your personal beliefs rely on only the Truth in the Bible, and so you ignore Truths that Jesus taught verbally.
Not all Truth is contained in the Bible.
Jesus taught by example and speaking and this was passed down by the Apostles and their successors.
Even today Catholic priests preach the Gospels verbally through the pulpit.
Jesus didn’t place a leather-bound New Testament directly into your hands. He created a Church, in which these texts were written, preserved, and passed on, under the ongoing guidance of the Holy Spirit. In other words, Jesus transmitted divine revelation via Tradition, so if you can’t trust Tradition, then you can’t trust the revelation.
Since Sacred Scripture is part of Sacred Tradition, that means Tradition is bigger. It tells us things about the Bible that the Bible doesn’t say about itself (for example, there’s nothing in the Bible that tells us which books belong in the Bible). The apostles recognized this about their own writings—that they were part of a broader transmission of the Faith.
That’s why, in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, St. Paul instructs his readers to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” The mode of transmission—written or unwritten—is irrelevant. It’s all Tradition.
Every Christian believes that he or she is called to pray for the world, to intercede and to mediate for others, to have a “ministry of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:18-19).
The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself (John 11:25; 14:6) and the bread of life who bestows life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56). The saints are alive in heaven because of the life they have received through their faith in Christ Jesus and through their eating of his body and blood.
The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-supports-praying-to-the-saints
May you find the Truth in the Catholic faith.
“Again, your personal beliefs rely on only the Truth in the Bible, and so you ignore Truths that Jesus taught verbally.”
God the Holy Spirit recorded ALL that is necessary for salvation and maturity.
I cannot ignore all else Christ taught, since no one knows what it was.
If you disagree, you should be able to simply prove it.
“Jesus taught by example and speaking and this was passed down by the Apostles and their successors.”
If this is a true claim, then simply prove it is true by using facts and evidence from before 100 ad.
But it cannot be proven.
It is simply a false claim - a belief without foundation, used as a blank check to make paganism “true”.
“In other words, Jesus transmitted divine revelation via Tradition, so if you can’t trust Tradition, then you can’t trust the revelation.”
Repeated often, but not true. God sovereignty inspired, preserved and transmitted 2/3 of His Word, thousands of years before there was a Church.
After the blessed reformation, the cannon was re-examined and corrections made.
“That’s why, in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, St. Paul instructs his readers to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” The mode of transmission—written or unwritten—is irrelevant. It’s all Tradition.”
1. Not a soul knows which traditions Paul referred to. No one.
2. Paul never equates tradition to the authority of Scripture.
3. No tradition is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Again, your argument attempts to make tradition into a blank check to cover whatever pagan traditions (which you advocate) Rome added. It is never that in Scripture ADSUM.
“The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself ”
We agree they are alive.
We are never called to pray, nor talk to them - nor is there any proof they can hear us. Zero.
Nor is there any evidence from the Apostles that this is true.
Given the importance Rome places on this, it is bizarre that no Apostle taught it.
Again, not there.
“and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).”
What is not said is that any believer on earth prayed to a departed saint. Not said anywhere.
“May you find the Truth in the Catholic faith.0
And may you find saving truth in Christ, who died to save before there was ever a church.
Your personal opinion: “We are never called to pray, nor talk to them - nor is there any proof they can hear us. Zero.”
God expects us to pray for one another. We see this in both the Old and New Testaments.
In a dream, God commanded King Abimelech to ask Abraham to intercede for him: “For [Abraham] is a prophet and he will pray for you, so you shall live” (Gen. 20:7). When the Lord is angry with Job’s friends because they did not speak rightly about God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you” (Job 42:8).
Paul wrote to the Romans: “I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you” (Rom. 15:30-32).
James says: “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17). Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. (Rev. 8:3–4) (Saints includes those living on earth and those living in Heaven.)
Again, you vilify tradition just by stating your opinion without factual basis.
Is your bias against Catholicism helping you avoid the Truth?
As Christ told Thomas, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”
Easy Peasy then: chapter and verse that shows we are called to pray or talk to departed saints and that they can hear us.
God expects us to pray for one another.
Yes! Non-departed believers who are on earth.
[Here I am gutting all the verses you posted that say nothing about praying to departed saints]
As it turns out, you posted no facts to prove we are to pray to departed saints. Zero!
Again, you vilify tradition just by stating your opinion without factual basis.
No, I asked you to prove your claim was more than just opinion and hopefulness and paganism.
You demonstrated again that you have nothing from Scripture to support this crazy belief.
I keep asking you to prove it.
Use unbroken history, use Scripture, use contemporaneous secular art.
Zip.
Where is the proof??
Right. None of which is witnessed in the NT M
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