Posted on 06/13/2018 7:22:36 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
When Catholics call Mary the "Blessed Virgin," they mean she remained a virgin throughout her life. When Protestants refer to Mary as "virgin," they mean she was a virgin only until Jesus’ birth. They believe that she and Joseph later had children whom Scripture refers to as "the brethren of the Lord." The disagreement arises over biblical verses that use the terms "brethren," "brother," and "sister."
There are about ten instances in the New Testament where "brothers" and "sisters" of the Lord are mentioned (Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5).
When trying to understand these verses, note that the term "brother" (Greek: adelphos) has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to the literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother. The same goes for "sister" (adelphe) and the plural form "brothers" (adelphoi). The Old Testament shows that "brother" had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as "fathers") and who are not descended from you (your male descendants, regardless of the number of generations removed, are your "sons"), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).
Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s "brother" (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the "brother" of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15).
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
How about a humble 70 year old grandma?
If Catholics worshiped Mary I would agree with you but we don’t. Have you ever gone to a Catholic Mass other than a wedding or a funeral?
Some of the 15 "promises" of the apparition Roman Catholics claim as Mary.
Whosoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary shall receive signal graces.
The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary shall not perish.
There's plenty more that can be posted on this.
Yup, I do all that but it is NOT worship. I worship Jesus. If you don’t understand the difference I pray you someday do.
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” Revelation 22:8-9 NASB
25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” Acts 10:25-26 NASB
10When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. 11After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Matthew 2:10-11 NASB
Based on the examples of the New Testament.....you are worshiping Mary.
Protestant Reformers Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli—honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other Protestant theologians. But today’s evangelicals know more than did. They have ways of finding things in the Bible no one else could in the last 2,000 years.
Yeah...because everything Roman Catholicism believes was so clear in the 1st century. My comments in []
This doctrine underwent a period of discussion until the late fourth century when general consensus emerged.
[So the doctrine was not received by the entire early church.]
The earliest witness to the perpetual virginity of Mary seems to appear in the apocryphal Protogospel of James (circa 150). [A book that was NOT received by the early NT church as being part of the canon. If this book is true, then Rome should have added it to its canon at Trent in the 1500s....that it did not is telling]
Tertullian (d, circa 220) denied the virginity of Mary after Jesus' birth. Origen (d 254), by contrast, taught Mary's perpetual virginity. In the East, St. Athanasius strongly defended Mary's virginity after the birth of Jesus. Shortly after, St.Basil the Great (d, circa 380) accepted Mary's perpetual virginity and claimed that it reflected the general sense of believers, though he did not consider it to be a dogma.
[Contrary to what Roman Catholics often suggest, there were many people in the early centuries of Christianity who rejected the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary. Though the doctrine was popular among the later church fathers, there was opposition to it even in those later centuries. The church father Basil commented that the view that Mary had other children after Jesus "was widely held and, though not accepted by himself, was not incompatible with orthodoxy" (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 495).]
Around the same time in the West, Jovinian and Helvidius denied the perpetual virginity while Ambrose (d. 397), Jerome (d. 420) and Augustine (d. 430) staunchly defended it. After this time, monasticism spread widely and the value of consecrated virginity became better known and widely accepted. General agreement and clear teaching on the perpetual virginity of Mary seem to have followed. [Like so many things with Rome....give it enough time and it will happen]
The official acts of the Fifth Ecumenical Council held at Constantinople in 553 refer to Mary as aeiparthenos (i.e. ever-virgin). For example, an anathema against the 'three chapters' condemns those who deny:
that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her ... These statements were not made in reference to a direct discussion of Mary's virginity. Hence, some argue that this statement was not a dogmatic definition, even though it was issued within a definitory document. For Catholics, such definitions may be made by the Episcopal college, in communion with its President, the Bishop of Rome, or by the Pope in virtue of his Presidency over the entire Episcopal college. Such definitions must be derived, at least implicitly, from the revelation closed at the death of the Apostles.
Though not an Ecumenical Council, the Lateran Council of 649 convened by Pope Martin I also issued an important statement affirming Mary's lifelong virginity:
If anyone does not, according to the Holy Fathers, confess truly and properly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was born of God the Father, and gave birth to Him without corruption, her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be condemned.
[Now we are 500+ years removed from the Apostles.]
After Constantinople II the title was universally accepted by the Church. Though already present in certain liturgical contexts, references to Mary's perpetual virginity were then propagated universally in the liturgical life of the Church. Hence, questioning the dogma's status as a 'definition' does not appear to be constructive. Note that some teachings which belong to the deposit of faith may not have been confirmed by a formal dogmatic definition (e.g. immortality of the soul?). This is often the case with teachings which have never been seriously contested.https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/p/perpetual-virginity-dogmatic-status-and-meaning.php
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St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):
“Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ’s Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.
For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ’s perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.
“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose “shrine” was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.
“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God’s Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.
“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel’s revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.
“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards.”
Not one bit of that is supported by scripture. Just a lot of conjecture on his part.
Yes, Ma'am, I have. I have gone to a Rosary for the grandmother of a good friend, I have attended numerous Masses, I have even personally gone through the ordination ceremony for priesthood (research for an organization I belonged to long ago).
Catholics do worship Mary. The Catholic church has venerated her above all others, pray to her and ask her to intervene on their behalf for forgiveness of sin. This is reserved SPECIFICALLY for Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5), there is only ONE mediator and it ain't Mary. Pope John Paul II believed Mary to be co-redemptrix alongside Christ, this is heresy (Acts 4:12).
Who is this that the priests are carrying? Does not look like Christ:
I maintain that most Protestants do not understand the concept of worship and that’s sad. Carrying a statue of Our Lady is not worship. Analyze the prayer “Hail Mary.” The first sentence is from Luke. Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with you. Gabriel did not say, You will be Holy and full of grace once the Holy Spirit shows up.” Gabriel describes her as he finds her. Full of Grace and with the Lord. God created Eve without sin. He was certainly capable of doing it again.
The next sentence is also from Luke. “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”
The last is asking Mary to pray for us during the two most important moments of our life - now and at the hour of our death. We’re not praying to her but asking her to pray for us.
I assume that you ask people to pray for you. You probably pray for people.
I do too. I also ask Jesus’s mother to prayer for me.
Carrying an idol, which you call a statute, is part of the worship process for Rome.
Comparing aspects of worship in the New Testament with what is witnessed in Roman Catholicism is very revealing and confirms the Roman Catholic indeed does worship Mary.
| New Testament Components of Worship | Roman Catholic Worship of Mary | |
| Praying to God Every knee shall bow to Him Reliance upon faith in Christ for salvation Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and body |
Praying to Mary Kneeling before idols of Mary Reliance upon the promises of an apparition claiming to be Mary and believing the false promise that wearing a piece of cloth, aka the Scapular, will keep you out of the Hell-fire The apparition claiming to be Mary says Whosoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary shall receive signal graces. . |
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Analyze the prayer “Hail Mary.” The first sentence is from Luke. Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with you.
A bad translation of the Greek. It is more correctly rendered as, Greetings, you favored with grace.
Gabriel did not say, You will be Holy and full of grace once the Holy Spirit shows up.” Gabriel describes her as he finds her. Full of Grace and with the Lord. God created Eve without sin. He was certainly capable of doing it again.
Nor did Gabriel tell Mary she was free from sin nor was she created without sin. The Roman Catholic is reading something into the text that isn't there.
The last is asking Mary to pray for us during the two most important moments of our life - now and at the hour of our death. We’re not praying to her but asking her to pray for us.
The emphasis on this vain, repititious prayer as part of the Rosary Roman Catholics are tasked with saying multiple times to "atone" for some of their sins, is primarily focused on Mary.
Consider:
In just one round of the Rosary:
13 Hail Mary's
3 Our Fathers
2 Glory to the Father
1 Apostles Creed
1 Hail Holy Queen
A total of 14 prayers to Mary out of 20....70% of the prayer is directed to Mary.
All prayer in the New Testament is directed to God. There are no directions on praying to Mary.
Your numbers are not accurate.
https://www.marian.org/mary/rosary/howto.php
I’m confused. Do you want to save my soul or convince me that I’m damned? Your arguments have become more and more angry. I’m not interested in winning an argument. I’m sharing the joy I have in my faith. If you want to share your joy, assuming you have any, I would like to hear from you again. Otherwise, God bless you but please leave me alone.
To be honest, it would be both. A person has to be convicted of their sin before repentance.
Your arguments have become more and more angry. I’m not interested in winning an argument.
You noted the following: I maintain that most Protestants do not understand the concept of worship and that’s sad. Carrying a statue of Our Lady is not worship.
All I did was post a reply to compare the aspects of worship in the New Testament with what is witnessed in Roman Catholicism.
Most Roman Catholics do not like it when the New Testament and their practices are put side by side for review.
Analyze the prayer “Hail Mary.” The first sentence is from Luke. Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with you.
I did just that.
I noted it is a poor translation that Rome relies upon and I noted the emphasis of the prayer is to Mary in contrast to what is witnessed in the New Testament where all prayer is directed to God.
Again, most Roman Catholics do not like it when their beliefs are examined in light of Scripture.
I’m sharing the joy I have in my faith. If you want to share your joy, assuming you have any, I would like to hear from you again.
You accuse me, wrongly I might add, of my post becoming "more and more angry" yet you accuse me of potentially not having any faith.
If I didn't have any faith in Christ, and only Christ, I wouldn't be making these posts to you...and to anyone else reading them.
Otherwise, God bless you but please leave me alone.
As long as a thread is an open thread and you post on it I reserve the right to post as I deem necessary. If the open thread is too much for you, perhaps you should limit your comments to those of the caucus threads.
But even there I've noticed Roman Catholics going at it with each other.
Tradition and Scripture go hand in hand. That’s something Protestants can’t seem to grasp. The true “rule of faith”—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic Tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly. The Bible denies that scripture is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).
Protestants full well understand the concept, and practice of worship. Catholics fill their worship with idols. We do not.
The prayer you mention, which is prayed to Mary, is horribly twisted out of context. To understand the prayer, look up the Greek from which it is derived. Gabriel did not say “Hail” he said “Greetings”. The Greek is ‘chairo’ which is a salutation. Nothing more. He further used ‘charitoo’, which is to honor with blessings. This is simply how the Angel of God greeted her, not to make her co-redemptrix as JPII did.
The following sentence comes from Elizabeth and is simply her expression to honor the woman by whom the Messiah shall come. I honor Mary for being chosen to bear the Christ, but will never worship her. Ask yourself this one defining thing: If you never spoke the name of Mary ever again, would you still be saved? Of course you would, your salvation rests in Christ alone!
Show me anywhere, ANYWHERE in the Bible where we are told to pray to anyone other than God. I ask people to pray here on Earth. Once you are dead, you no longer have dealings with mankind. Mary has nothing to do with you now, she is in the presence of her son. You are to pray to God only. There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Matthew 15:1-8 "Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’”
Traditions are good for remembering how to worship the Creator but can never supplant His Word. Rely on what is written in scripture and you can never go wrong. Rely on man and you will almost invariably fail.
Psalm 118:8 "It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man."
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