Do most Calvinists really know what Calvin taught about predestination?

Running Away From My Church Blog ^ | 5/25/2018 | Robert Messner

[tiredofallofit]

Well I finally got around to it – I am reading through some of the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin. I say “some” because the complete work spans more than 1500 pages and deals with some of the most weighty and complex theological issues known to mankind. I have chosen for now to plod my way through the most controversial aspects of Calvin’s writings; the topics of predestination and election.

Most of my friends who call themselves Calvinists are eager to disassociate themselves from the doctrine of “double predestination”. They state that God has predestined some to eternal life, but they assure me that He would never send people to hell. People get there on their own, I am told. And what did Calvin teach? I ask. Usually, I receive some sort of vague answer – like how Calvin’s writings are difficult to understand or how misunderstood he is by other denominations. Ok, I get that. He was an intellectual giant – but what did he say about double predestination and if you don’t know exactly, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist?

So I decided to have a look for myself. Surprisingly, The Institutes of the Christian Religion are not so difficult to read or comprehend, despite the complexity of the topics discussed.

Calvin begins his discourse on the doctrine of predestination and election in Chapter 21 of Book 3 of his Institutes. If one just reads the title of this chapter and nothing else, he or she quickly ascertains Calvin’s view on double predestination – for the chapter is titled “OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.” That’s pretty clear, is it not?

But in case you still doubt his position, allow me to share with you this excerpt from Section 5 in Chapter 21:

"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."

He goes on to address the “arrogant” and “blasphemous” objections which are leveled at his view of predestination. And there are plenty of such objections. In typical Calvin style, he does not back down nor does he attempt to soften his message. God ordains some people to heaven and some people to hell, end of story.

“If that is what Calvin truly taught,” a Calvinist friend told me recently, “then I shouldn’t call myself a Calvinist. That’s not what I believe.”

There is no doubt that Calvin fully subscribed to the doctrine of double predestination. He invented it! Maybe it’s time for some Calvinists to revisit these Institutes of his and reevaluate their desire to affix this label on themselves.

Reference:

Calvin, John. Institutes of Christian religion. Trans. Henry Beveridge, Esq. 1599. Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Nov. 1999. 20 Sept. 2001

[Bob434]

but He only hated Esau because he knew Esau,of his own free will, would reject Him

In terms of ‘The Elect’ (Which the bible states over and over again- concerning those that are ‘predestined to be saved’)- I read a good possible explanation once that went along the lines of:

God looks into the future and see who, of their own free will, choose to accept Him, and these God ‘elects’ to be saved. He doesn’t elect to save those that will reject Him (hence free will). The free will act of the person in seeking God causes God to select/elect them for His mercy

If a person is made to be willing to accept God, then salvation is forced and unresistable, and there is no chance for free will

“Whom he foreknew, he predestined.”

In the above verse- those whom God ‘foreknows’ are those He foreknew would ‘believe on His son’- Those are the ones He ‘predestines’. He doesn’t hate people that haven’t first determined to reject Him- His foreknowledge of their rejection of Him is the reason for the ‘hate’. (The bible is full of examples of God hating people or towns or nations- and that is because they were determined to reject the salvation of Christ)

[SoConPubbie]

And yet, he says that he came to save all mankind.

His foreknowledge does not imply an arbitrary picking of winners and losers.

We all come to Christ as absolute and complete sinners, none better than the other.

[fungoking]

Maybe someday I’ll meet a 5 pointer who thinks their spouse or one of their kids isn’t one of the select.

[Bob434]

it’s not talking abotu all cowardness- only the cowardness of rejectign God because they think that accepting Him will result in beign rejected by their friends:

“The fearful, who, through fear of losing their reputation, estates, honours, or lives, deny me, or shall not dare to own me.”

[Mad Dawg]

His foreknowledge does not imply an arbitrary picking of winners and losers.

Troof. I'd go with “mysterious” or “currently incomprehensible.”

... as absolute and complete sinners, none better than the other.

Wait! I'm not better’n you? Where's the fun in THAT? I want my money back!

:-P

[Bob434]

[[But if he knows what decisions we are going to make before we consciously make them then haven’t our decisions been predetermined.]]

No- Not predetermined, but foreknown- it is no more predetermined than if i give a choice to a person to ‘choose a bowl of icecream to eat, or a bowl of sewage to eat’ I am almost certain (whereas God is 100% certain which way the person will choose) before hand that they will choose the icecream- but it’s still their choice- I have not forced their decision- they are free to choose the sewage if they choose to. Salvation is much like this example- We can choose the good (Heaven) or we can choose the sewage (hell)- God knows how we’re going to choose- but He doesn’t force us to this decision- He just foreknows what OUR choice will be

Election, predetermination, foreknowledge etcd- are all tough subjects to be sure-

[fungoking]

The Babylon Bee has a lit of fun with Calvinist:
http://babylonbee.com/?s=Calvin

Calvinist Dog Corrects Owner: ‘No One Is A Good Boy’
Calvinist Nods Stoically After Being Ambushed By Surprise Party
Santa Claus Converts To Calvinism, Moves Everybody To Naughty List
New Calvinist Baskin-Robbins Offers Customers One Preselected Flavor To Choose From
Calvinist Health Insurance Company Declares All Conditions Pre-Existing

[editor-surveyor]

.
>> “God is outside time.” <<

Its amazing how few people understand this fact.

He literally created time and space, 6000 years ago as measured here on Earth.
.

[metmom]

“Choose life” is only found in Deuteronomy and it is irrelevant to this discussion.

How so?

God told them to choose. How or why would He have commanded that they choose unless He gave them that option?

Joshua 24:14-15 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

[metmom]

Repent and believe the Good News. Yes. You were chosen. Not just for salvation after death. You were chosen to KNOW and be DRAWN toward God.

And so God is going to command people to do something He rendered them incapable of doing and then damn them for not doing it?

Yes, God draws us, but He draws ALL men.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

[metmom]

Peter is *petros* in the Greek, not *petra*.

Catholicism makes a blatant error and mistranslation to support the claim that Peter is the rock on which the church of Christ is built.

[Bryan24]

I don’t think you even understand what you are saying. I KNOW you don’t understand what I posted.

If God had determined that the next child born in Dallas, Texas is going to hell (THAT, is predestination), then that child might as well live any way it wants, never go to church, never study a bible, just live like an animal.

I did not, and do not, suggest that we can determine our eternal salvation by our self. Only by the mercy and grace of God has Salvation been offered to us through the blood of Jesus Christ.

But a True Calvinist argues that your eternal destiny has already been determined. If that is true, Jesus wasted a lot time instructing us how to live and what I must do to inherit eternal life. He would have told the rich, young ruler that there is nothing he could do, it was already determined.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If it is predetermined, Peter was wasting his breath, too.

I see no reason whatsoever for you to even be discussing this because it is a waste of time. There is nothing you or I can do to change your, or my, eternal destiny.

If you are a True Calvinist. I suspect you are not.

[metmom]

John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

[Bryanw92]

>>Yes, God draws us, but He draws ALL men.

Then how does the all-powerful God of the Universe who can speak creation into existence fail at attracting all men?

He is less powerful than gravity, vacuum, magnetic force, nuclear binding force?? They always work. But when God “draws” EVERYONE, he only gets a remnant? The rest can resist his call day after day, regardless of what he does, for an entire lifetime?

[metmom]

Ephesians 4:11-14 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

You find one that teaches the word of God, not the doctrines of men, and equips people to go out and make disciples as we are commanded.

Why go?

Because we are commanded to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, not because we are threatened with hellfire if we don't go every Sunday.

We go for Christian fellowship, edification, teaching, preaching, worship, cause you want to be with fellow believers.

Church is good and helpful and we can flounder on our own, but it's not necessary by any means for salvation.

For my part, I suspect that the NT believers would not recognize what we do today as *church*. I don't think churches today bear much resemblance to how believers in the NT conducted themselves.

[Bryanw92]

>>I don’t think you even understand what you are saying. I KNOW you don’t understand what I posted.

I fully understand what you are saying. I understand what I am saying. But I am not going to write down every word and proof that I know just to satisfy a faceless name on the internet. If we were sitting down together in a comfortable place with a few hours to kill, I would explain in detail.

[metmom]

Babylon Bee is great!

[metmom]

He draws, He doesn’t compel.

[Mr Rogers]

“Then how does the all-powerful God of the Universe who can speak creation into existence fail at attracting all men?”

Because He wants SONS, not SLAVES?

Because you can want one thing (all to be saved) but want something else more (willing sons, not robotic obedience).

[Bryanw92]

>>He draws, He doesn’t compel.

You are employing semantics. Do you know what the word “Lord” means in ancient cultures where the bible was written?

The thread is about “do Calvinists really know what Calvin taught.” Asked and answered.