What If Pope Francis Isn’t Catholic? (A Protestant reflection)

The Gospel Coalition ^ | 03-20-2018 | Collin Hansen

[NRx]

In her Nobel Prize-winning book Secondhand Time: The Last of the Soviets, Svetlana Alexievich interviews scores of Russians who lament the loss of the Soviet Empire, even as they recount its horrors in excruciating detail. The Soviet Empire may have been barbaric, but at least they were great! The world feared them! They had defeated Hitler! (No thanks to the British and Americans.)

Several unapologetic Soviets complain they lost their beloved empire without a shot. Why didn’t blood flow in the streets in her defense? They blame Mikhail Gorbachev. As one Soviet observes, the Communist system could withstand any challenge from below. It could suppress any revolution. Except one. What if the party’s leader was no longer a true believer? What if Gorbachev betrayed the cause from within the Kremlin, from the very top, where no one could stop him?

Ross Douthat ponders an analogous takeover within the Vatican in his new book, To Change the Church: Pope Francis and the Future of Catholicism. What if Pope Francis isn’t Catholic? What if he aims to overturn centuries of dogma? What if he plans to stack the College of Cardinals with liberal allies who will ensure his revolution can’t soon be reversed? What if he banishes his conservative critics to the church’s periphery? Who, then, will enforce the teaching on sexuality and marriage preserved against Western cultural trends by the late Pope John Paul II and self-titled Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI? Indeed, how can the vicar of Christ so confidently dismiss the words of Christ on marriage and adultery from the Gospels?

[Elsie]

....had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah,....

 

 

Funny; I missed the part about sails and a rudder...

 

 

 

 

 

Genesis 6:15-16

 ¹⁵ This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.^{[d] 16} Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit^[e] high all around.^[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.

 

Genesis 7:16

¹⁶ The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in.

 

 

Genesis 8:1-7

But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. ² Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. ³ The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, ⁴ and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. ⁵ The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.

⁶ After forty days Noah opened a window he had made in the ark ⁷ and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth.

 

 

 

[Elsie]

Russian???

SURELY you mean LUTHERAN!

[Elsie]

[Hold absolutely onto the Teaching!

And just what 'teaching' is being referred to here?

[daniel1212]

To my knowledge, none of Francis’ pronouncements to date have been Ex-Cathedra and therefore are not matters of Dogma that must be obeyed.

Then you must be what RCs denigrate as a "poorly catechized Catholic, since far more than only Ex-Cathedra papal statements require assent. Yet your statement has other adherents, and testifies to the divisions within Catholicism. See post above .

[HarleyD]

This article is a hoot; complaining the Pope’s poor theology on the fact that he might be a closet Protestant. Well, the popes have been practicing poor theology for the last 1600 years. The Protestants simply had enough a long time ago and left. Someday the rest of you will wise up.

[Elsie]

Rome has practically built their worship of Mary on about three verses taken completely out of context.

But, but...

...MANY apparitions have PROVEN that the Church at Rome is correct!!

[Elsie]

(Anyone ever notice that ‘Mary’ NEVER seems to go to the Vicar of Christ to get ‘her’ next message out?)

[Elsie]

Because that is precisely what Roman Catholicism does with words. The normal meaning of words has to be twisted or redefined to justify their false doctrines.

 

 

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,

' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'  

[Elsie]

Bergolio is not the Pope. Benedict XVI is still the Pope. He was forced out by the imposter.

---

Your argument is unconvincing, when you can claim that any Pope you don’t like isn’t REALLY da Pope.

What 'argument'?

All I see is yet another 'opinion'.

Arguments take at least some modicum of evidence.

[Elsie]

I have my own opinion and no one can take it from me.

God can.

[daniel1212]

Miss you more and more..

He also was attacked by RCs who presume they can judge the pope.

TradCat RC apologist Robert Sugenis (who still has his fans) attacked on PJ2 as having :

1. Invited pagans to pray to their false gods.

2. Looked the other way while his clerics raped his children, and ordained faggots to say his Masses

3. Shuffled pedophiles and homosexuals from parish to parish, even giving them safe haven at the Vatican.

4. Subjected those Catholic who dare protest to droning quotes from Vatican I and Lumen Gentium about “submission”

5. Watched scantily clad women dance while Mass was being said.

6. Suggested that hell might not exist.

7. Suggested that the Jews still have their Old Covenant

8. Kissed the Koran

9. Made it appear as if God has given man universal salvation by using ambiguous language in official writings

10. Accepted the tenets of evolution.

11. Wrote a catechism that contained theological errors and ambiguities.

12. Changed the canonization laws: marriage laws, capital punishment laws, laws about women’s roles.

13. Went against the tradition by putting women in leadership positions and dispensing with head coverings.

14. Failed to excommunicate heretical bishops and priests who were spouting heresies.

15. Protected Bishop Marcinkus and his entourage of financial hoodlums in the Vatican.

16. Ignored the pleas of a bishop who was merely trying to preserve the tradition (Archbishop Levebre)

17. Exonerated Luther

18. Allowed the Luther‐Catholic Joint Declaration, signed by a high‐ranking Cardinal, to explicitly state that “man is justified by faith alone.”

19. Disobeyed the Fatima request to consecrate Russia.

(http://www.catholicintl.com/articles/Response%20to%20John%20Dejak%20of%20The%20Wanderer.pdf; http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/04/sungenis-alone.html)

The first link i now dead, not surprisingly after it was posted on the second, and thus a reactionary RC rejected the claim that Sugenis expressed this, but the validity of these is established by Catholics, as seen in my response .

[daniel1212]

Amazing isn’t it. Roman Catholics seem to flip flop more than the clintons.

It depends upon who is pope. If Benedict was still pope then many conservative RCs would be the ones attacking lack of submission. Yet some attacked even JP2. See post above.

[Elsie]

"It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors ." - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

Dang!

Them thar Mormons have influenced EVER one!!

---

 

---

---

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)     http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

[Elsie]

Funny; I missed the part about sails and a rudder...

 

 

At least the Mormons had...

 

 

 

---

---

THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY

CHAPTER 16

The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.

1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.

2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ^ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the ^bguilty taketh the ^ctruth to be hard, for it ^dcutteth them to the very center.

3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might ^awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.

4 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.

5 And it came to pass that they did ^ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.

6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the ^avalley which he called Lemuel.

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the ^adaughters of Ishmael to ^bwife; and also, my brethren took of the ^cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also ^dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the ^acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.

9 And it came to passthat the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ^ajourney into the wilderness.

10 And it came to passthat as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ^aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one ^bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.

11 And it came to passthat we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take ^aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.

12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.

13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place ^aShazer.

14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the ^aRed Sea.

15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, ^aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.

16 And we did follow the ^adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.

17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.

18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine ^asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.

20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did ^amurmur against the Lord.

21 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their ^asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.

22 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto ^acomplaining against the Lord their God.

23 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did ^amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my ^bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?

24 And it came to pass that he did ^ainquire of the Lord, for they had ^bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.

25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly ^achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.

26 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.

27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were ^awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.

28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the ^afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.

29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us ^aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by ^bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.

30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the ^adirections which were given upon the ball.

31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild ^abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.

32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained ^afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.

33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.

34 And it came to pass that ^aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called ^bNahom.

35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did ^amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their ^bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did ^cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.

36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to ^areturn again to Jerusalem.

37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us ^aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our ^bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.

38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that ^aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman ^bstir up their hearts to ^canger.

39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did ^achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.

 

The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2010 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

 

---

---

 

[daniel1212]

Really. So the college of cardinals and the white smoke and the whole show never happened? Can you get a pope anulled just like a marriage?

They can only wish. A pope cannot be deposed against his will.

For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered. (CCC 882)

who "hath government, authority, and power of binding and loosing from the Incarnate Word Himself; and, according to all holy synods, sacred canons and decrees, in all things and through all things, in respect of all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world." (Defloratio ex Epistola ad Petrum illustrem; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html)

And who is effectively autocratic:"

We read that the Roman Pontiff has pronounced judgments on the prelates of all the churches; we do not read that anybody has pronounced sentence on him"..The reason for which is stated thus: "there is no authority greater than that of the Apostolic See" — Post Epistolam, xxvi., ad omnes Episc. Hispan., n. 4

That a sentence passed by him may be retracted by no one; and that he himself, alone of all, may retract it. That he himself may be judged by no one. That no one shall dare to condemn one who appeals to the apostolic chair. - Dictatus papae [1075]; http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/g7-dictpap.asp

And while one can argue that the pope has excommunicated himself, yet formal action is required (or else, as with latae sententiae excommunication of lay persons, priests and laity may disagree on whether pone is. But no one can depose a pope without his approval.

It is argued that.

...according to which the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church.

. https://www.fisheaters.com/bellarmine.html

However, it would be consistent with his exaltation for the pope to be the supreme judge of what heresy is.

Canon law 1404 states, The First See is judged by no one.

Dictatus papae [1075] (a compilation of 27 statements of powers arrogated to the Pope that was included in Pope Gregory VII's register under the year 1075), likewise asserts,

That he himself may be judged by no one. - http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/g7-dictpap.asp

>The First Vatican Council, which infallibly declared papal infallibly (overcoming opposition) stated:

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema. [so much for the EOs] — First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 (1869-1870) http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

"We read that the Roman Pontiff has pronounced judgments on the prelates of all the churches; we do not read that anybody has pronounced sentence on him"... The reason for which is stated thus: "there is no authority greater than that of the Apostolic See"... "That which the First See has not approved of cannot stand;..." — Leo XIII - Satis cognitum; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html

You Romans never cease to amaze me. Your doctrines and magisterium reign supreme unless it’s inconvenient then it doesn’t count. Now I know how pelosi and the other abortion loving democrats and the pedophile priests remain in good standing in your sect.

Actually while TradCats excommunicate such, that does make it so, and Rome manifestly considers Ted Kennedy RCs as members in life and in death, to their eternal horror!

[daniel1212]

Bergolio is not the Pope. Benedict XVI is still the Pope. He was forced out by the imposter. So, not the same as Luther. ***

You could say the same about Leo X... Your argument is unconvincing, when you can claim that any Pope you don’t like isn’t REALLY da Pope.

Well, they are "little popes," charging us with being the same for basically doing as they do.

[ealgeone]

Dude....impressive work as always.

The man-made rules and regulations of Roman Catholicism are so vast the average Roman Catholic has no clue as to how their denomination really operates. For if they did, there would not be one word of criticism from the lowly members.

[daniel1212]

This article is a hoot; complaining the Pope’s poor theology on the fact that he might be a closet Protestant. Well, the popes have been practicing poor theology for the last 1600 years. The Protestants simply had enough a long time ago and left. Someday the rest of you will wise up. And one some things the EOs sound like us, though still being much of traditions of men: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/EOvs.Rome.html

[metmom]

I have my own opinion and no one can take it from me.

No doubt, as we all do.

College of Cardinals are derelict in their duties. Many are heretics, too.

Problem is, Catholics keep telling us that the Holy spirit is protecting the Catholic church from error, and yet the Catholic church is currently what my daughter refers to as a *dumpster fire*.

It's a mess, top to bottom and is itself not following the teachings established in the past.

If the Holy Spirit is really protecting the Catholic church, He's not doing a very good job of it. And I don't care how long its been around. Longevity is not the test of genuineness.

[ebb tide]

Pope Francis: it is not a sin to criticise the Pope