This is a good verse for your thoughts about a professional clergy.
Posted on 03/20/2018 10:49:23 AM PDT by fishtank
Peace brother,
1-Timothy “17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
Please consider the verses cited in light of the full chapter. Money or remuneration is nowhere mentioned in regard to honor or praise...just honor those who labor in the Word. In effect, show respect to elders, and double respect to those who provide leadership or teaching.
Paul worked to pay for his expenses as I am sure you know. He complained about it a couple times...mostly about food and lodging...he wanted to work for his keep outside the Word. Still he ran the full race.
Here is what Jesus said about the hireling priests of the Jewish temple.
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. John 10:12
The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. John 10:13
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. John 10:14
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. John 10:15
Paid positions in Christianity is a 4th century addition of Roman pagan temple practice to the new faith co-oped to serve government purposes by Constantine.
A much fuller treatment is found in Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna.
Now, I need to go sew some tents.
Paul and the other church leaders were paid to be a church leader. They received money for their services.
Are you referring to speaking in tongues as described in the New Testament books of Mark, Acts, Romans, and Corinthians.
I suspect you were in mind when Paul wrote to the Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
Speaking in tongues is not something a Christian does because he can; he does it because he is moved to.
I listen to a preacher that doesn’t get paid. He sees his pastoral job as working for God whereas a paid pastor is an employee of the church.
So don’t give.
I was making a joke about a humorous article. I had no intention of sparking a serious theological discussion.
I don’t prescribe that Paul was other than a historian. Do you? Do you take his word and “the word of God” even though he has massive conflicting contradictions in following the law which was done away with on the cross. But ill just bet that you think his word was infallible and the lasting word of God. Then you need to follow this edict from Paul, right?
“33For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women are to be silent... They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home...; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in Ekklesia.”
Now you take that literally don’t you? and you do see the contradiction in his reference to “ The LAW” and that is in direct contradiction of Romans 8:3”For what was impossible for the law, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did. By[a] sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the requirement of the law would be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Now which is it? Law or no law? I am more interested in the word “Ekklesia” and it’s actual meaning in the original Greek changed to “church” 1611 years after Christ’s birth ( actually in 4 A.D.)
Raiderboy is our resident grump.
He needs to be ignored.
A gift is the same as a gift or dues at the Elks club. No theological benefit to either. Salvation is only through belief in Christ as the Son of God. John 3:16-18.
Well, if you doubt the authority of Scripture, then we have nothing to discuss.
Wonderful teaching. I agree with those scriptures. I am enamored with the visit of Christ to Capernaum in chapter 17 on Matthew where he is asked to pay the Temple Tax and he say “ a king does not tax his childeren” He then refuses to pay His two Dracma tax himself and tells Peter to go catch a fish and give the tax collectors ( the money changers) the coins in the fishes mouth. Jesus kept His money. Then Jesus spoke in the Temple.
That’s funny. I actually do use an air horn in church.
I lead a Trail Life USA boys adventure troop at our church. When we need to get the boys back together in the auditorium, I blast an air horn. Bells are for sissies.
You obviously need to do more “years” of study in the actual Greek.
Ekklesia was what the Greeks called their “assembly” of men for the government. All of the men, which is why Paul used ekklesia when discussing women, got tohether, and voted on things. And they held the ekklesia in a special building or area for this purpose.
So Paul using a word, from the popular culture at that time, to people living in that culture, must have meant what THAT culture thought the word meant. And for them, it meant showing up at a specific building, listening to speakers talking about important decisions, and then making a decision.
Pretty much what I ask my flock to do every Sunday. You know Sunday don’t you? The first day of the week when you bring your gifts and offerings.
well, it may be now, but not in the beginning of the US. The church was the only entity that provided for the poor and infirm. When people who moved to another town or state got sick, or got poor, they were sent back to the town they were born. The church provided for them. Nowadays those funds are spent on vanity too often - who can have the prettiest or biggest house of worship.
I am a missionary on a foreign field. In about 3.5 hours I am going to my place of work and I will be actively engaged with the people I am currently discipling. I have no other job. How, I ask you, can I eat, cloth myself, pay my rent, etc. if it is not gifts, financial support, given by God's people?
I’ve got one. We attended a fund raiser for a missions organization. 1000 people or so there. Dinner and presentation. At the very end, as the president of the organization was making his speech to “seal the deal”..... my cell phone laying on the table, by itself, decided to play a song at top volume, which I could not shut off. I walked out of the hotel convention room with it playing Travis Tritt.... “Here’s A Quarter, Call Someone Who Cares”
My mom and dad were vacationing in Europe and walking through an old church, site seeing. They came across two younger women (20’s?) that were also looking and taking notes and obviously American.
My dad struck up a conversation - turns out they were missionaries. “You know - Austria is almost as unchurched as parts of Africa now!” Anyway - my dad asked if it would be okay to give them a little donation, and pulled out his check book. I forget what it was - something like $250. The girls thanked him and said “Oh thank you!! Our rent is $250 and it is due at the end of the week - and we didn’t know where we would get it.”
“Oh - that’s amazing! Well I’m glad I could help.”
“Yes - it IS amazing - but we see it all the time - God providing for us in so many amazing ways. It confirms that we are doing His work.”
And of course not only were the gals blessed, and the people they minister to were blessed, but my old man got a blessing too.
Yes! Amen! Precisely! Hallelujah!
This is a good verse for your thoughts about a professional clergy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_Tongues_(Talking_Heads_album)
"Speaking in Tongues is the fifth studio album by the band Talking Heads, released in 1983......."
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