Posted on 03/05/2018 6:41:26 PM PST by metmom
For me, it wasn’t contentious.
But as soon as I posted what Graham said about believing that infant baptism made the babies into Christian’s. the contentiousness never stopped.
Thanks for the info!
I never realized there are TWO different forms of LDS baptism.
Well...
2. Im Superior; I have Gods true priesthood power -- you dont!
3. Im Superior; I can go in Gods secret Temple -- you cant!
4. Im Superior; Ive been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- youre just normal!
5. Im Superior; Ill have my family with me in heaven -- youll be with strangers!
6. Im Superior; Im becoming a God -- you arent!
7. Im Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours dont.
8. Im Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures).
9. Im Superior; I dont HAVE a creed - Ive got 13 Articles of Faith.
10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly.
11. Im Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. -- You cant.
12. Im Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics --
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't.
14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't
15. Im Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself.
16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't.
17. Im Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you dont.
18. Im Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you dont ;so you cant.
19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't.
20. Im Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably -- Youre on your own; when you get to wherever youre going!
21. Im Superior; Im going to hie to Kolob -- youre going to who knows where.
22. Im Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you dont.
23. Im Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple
24. Im Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty.
25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!)
"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours."
--Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)
Then there are the JW's and I'm just SURE that the Oneness Pentecostals fit in there somewhere as well...
There is the church baptism for converts and kids and the Temple baptisms where Temple Worthy mormons go to baptize the dearly departed infidels.
I was never Temple Worthy.
Matthew 15:16
"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Matthew 231. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
Yup!
Dead; in his grave; awaiting the Last Trump along with the REST of the Dead in Christ.
I gave up playing defense LONG ago!
Don't feel too bad, as only about 15% or so of Mormon's actually are.
I know that in my years of interacting with them on FR; I've yet to see one of them make the claim that they WERE TW!!!
I don't see what's so hard about it...
Temple Recommend Questions
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? 5 Do you live the law of chastity? 6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church? 7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? 8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? 9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen? 10 Are you a full-tithe payer? 11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom? 12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? 13 If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple? 14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been? 15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances? |
Posthumous baptisms are performed at the churchs 159 temples around the globe, mostly by young people. Members are escorted to a decorative baptismal font resting on statutes of 12 oxen. An adult or older teen male reads a short prayer, and the member representing the dead relative is immersed in water. Each baptism is recorded in the database.
At a conference this year, LDS leaders stressed the importance of proxy baptisms saying God wants all his children home again, in families and in glory and encouraged young members to get involved. The church has nearly 16 million members worldwide.
O...K...
Let's see if there are enough folks around that CAN actually do this - needing a CURRENT TR: Temple Recommend.
The idealized vision of a family with a husband and wife married in the temple and children present
describes only one out of five LDS families in the United States and less than 3 percent of LDS families in Japan.
Based on the above information, it seems likely that the highest rates of temple attendance among Mormons are in the Mormon heartland the Wasatch Front and other parts of the Intermountain West. The percentage of Mormons who regularly participate in temple worship in that Mormon heartland is unlikely to be as high as the percentage noted in the 2012 Pew Survey 65%. Given the methodology of the survey, that number appears to reflect the behaviors of highly engaged Mormons. The other data provided above suggest that the real number is much lower than the Pew number, perhaps as few as 25% in the U.S. and much lower outside the U.S., but an exact number isnt known.
...the exact percentage of Mormons with Temple recommends are not published by Church authorities... http://mormonconspiracy.com/lds-temple.html
(Neither do they publish IN-exact figures!)
Since the church believes that one must be temple worthy in order to attain the Celestial Kingdom, having the power to grant or withhold recommends gives the local bishops immense power. Furthermore, in predominantly Mormon areas the lack of a recommend can often mean the loss of a job or being shunned by ones neighbors. These slips of paper are most valuable. --- Laytayne Colvett Scott, Mormon Mirage, pg. 193
It seems to me that if a TR is SO valuable; the church would make every effect to be SURE that each of it's members had one.
... in order to attain the Celestial Kingdom...
Speaking of which...
AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God. CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven. EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom. GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community. HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
Temple Recommend Questions: 1857
1. Have you committed murder by shedding innocent blood, or consenting thereto?
2. Have you betrayed your brethren or sisters in anything?
3. Have you committed adultery, by having any connection with a woman that was not your wife, or a man that was not your husband?
4. Have you taken and made use of property not your own, without the consent of the owner?
5. Have you cut hay where you had no right to, or turned your animals into another persons grain or field, without his knowledge and consent?
6. Have you lied about or maliciously misrepresented any person or thing?
7. Have you borrowed anything that you have not returned, or paid for?
8. Have you borne false witness against your neighbor?
9. Have you taken the name of Deity in vain?
10. Have you coveted anything not your own?
11. Have you been intoxicated with strong drink?
12. Have you found lost property and not returned it to the owner, or used all diligence to do so?
13. Have you branded an animal that you did not know to be your own?
14. Have you taken anothers horse or mule from the range and rode it, without the owner's consent?
15. Have you fulfilled your promises in paying your debts, or run into debt without prospect of paying?
16. Have you taken water to irrigate with, when it belonged to another person at the time you used it?
17. Do you pay your tithing promptly?
18. Do you teach your family the gospel of salvation?
19. Do you speak against your brethren, or against any principle taught in the Bible, Book of Mormon, book of Doctrine and Covenants, revelations given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and the Presidency of the Church as now organized?
20. Do you pray in your family night and morning and attend to secret prayer?
21. Do you wash your body and have your family do so, as often as health and cleanliness require and circumstances will permit?
22. Do you labor six days and rest, or go to the house of worship, on the seventh?
23. Do you preside over your household as a servant of God, and is your family subject to you?
24. Have you labored diligently and earned faithfully the wages paid you by your employers?
25. Do you oppress the hireling in his wages?
26. Have you taken up and converted any stray animal to your own use, or in any manner appropriated one to your benefit, without accounting therefore to the proper authorities?
Office of First President & Living Prophet®: April 1st, 2012 URGENT!
|
But that's the problem.
He never SAID that.
You seem to have understood what he said to MEAN that.
All he said was that he thought *something happened* which is not *Baptism saves babies*.
And do you allow for his views to change and mature over the course of 57 years or are you going to continue to hold what you think he meant against him forever?
Yes, he did say that.
If you agree with him, that infant baptism turns infants into Christians, that’s your belief.
I don’t share it and believe that Graham was wrong on the issue.
I believe he was also wrong in his embrace of Islam and Catholicism.
Your mileage may vary of course and those may be beliefs you share with Graham.
So we’ve seen ;-)
With all respect, I’ll accept some ‘snark’ from Jesus, as his words come down to us and in His pursuit of His Mission, that I won’t accept from ‘just anybody’.
Jesus is the one who told is to ‘turn the other cheek’.
I happen to interpret that in the metaphysical way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek#Metaphysical_interpretation
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