St. Paul Was Not Ashamed of the Gospel — Are We?

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 10-16-17 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[ealgeone]

Of course She recognized that. Why shouldn't She?

She was a sinner.

I notice you capitalized She....your worship of Mary knows no end does it?

[af_vet_1981]

The Hail Mary is not Biblically based. It cannot be defended using Scripture.

I noticed this assertion is not that the Hail Mary is unbiblical, but rather than it is not Biblically based.

However the Hail Mary, like the Our Father, are biblically based, being derived wholly (Our Father), or in large part (Hail Mary) from the scriptures.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

...

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

...

And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

...

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

...

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

...

And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Matthew, Catholic chapter six, Protestant verses nine to thirteen,
Luke, Chapter eleven, Protestant verses two to four,
Luke, Chapter one, Protestant verses twenty six to thirty three,
Luke, Chapter one, Protestant verses forty six to fifty five,
Matthew, Catholic chapter one, Protestant verses eighteen to twenty three,
Luke, Chapter two, Protestant verses thirty three to thirty five,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[ebb tide]

It is you have who has little faith to deny God cannot permit an immaculate conception of a virgin who would conceive and bear His only Son.

By your previous post: Jesus was not immaculate because His Mother was not immaculate. So was Jesus Christ born with original sin?

[ealgeone]

It is you have who has little faith to deny God cannot permit an immaculate conception of a virgin who would conceive and bear His only Son.

Could He do this? Yes.

Did He do this? No.

By your previous post: Jesus was not immaculate because His Mother was not immaculate. So was Jesus Christ born with original sin?

You're attempt at reasoning is....well, I hope you don't have to use logic in whatever field of work you're in.

[RegulatorCountry]

Thanks for exposing your hypocrisy. If Mary was not immaculate, neither was Her Son, Jesus Christ.

It's not hypocrisy at all. If Mary had to be "immaculate" in order to give birth to Jesus Christ, then how was Mary herself "immaculate" if her own mother was not? Attempting to intellectualize rather than accepting on faith leads to such speculation, and that's just what it is, speculation, not faith.

Scripture tells us Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, who was Mary. Scripture does not attribute sinlessness or being ever-virgin to her. Elevating her to such an unscriptural status creates a logical contradiction. Was Mary somehow more special than her Son, to have been able to emerge sinless from her sinful mother's womb when even He could not? Or, is it turtles all the way down with the virginity all the way back to Eve, in order to maintain this unscriptural status for Mary?

There are problems with both, which leads those of us not so bound to defend unscriptural speculation to point these problems out. Why not just accept on faith what we're told by scripture and just leave it at that? Seems much simpler, with far less contradiction.

[ealgeone]

I noticed this assertion is not that the Hail Mary is unbiblical,...

In either case it isn't substantiated by Scripture when viewed in its entirety.

The problem with the Hail Mary is that it is a prayer TO Mary. The Bible is clear we are to direct our prayers to God.

So right off the bat the HM is predicated upon an unbiblical practice.

[ebb tide]

She was a sinner.

She is the Mother of God. I give Her due respect and venerate Her.

What particular sin(s) did She commit?

Or do you just enjoy calumniating God's Mother on every Catholic thread you can?

[ebb tide]

It's not hypocrisy at all. If Mary had to be "immaculate" in order to give birth to Jesus Christ, then how was Mary herself "immaculate" if her own mother was not?

Dumb question which has already been answered.

How did a virgin conceive the Son of God?

[ealgeone]

>>She was a sinner.<<

She is the Mother of God.

She is the mother of the Lord as Luke recorded....unless you want to change Scripture.

I give Her due respect and venerate Her.

When you kneel before your idol of Mary, pray before and to the image represented by the idol, light candles before, rely upon her....you're worshiping her on contradiction of the Bible.

Your continual use of caps for Her, She, etc. continues to show your obstinancy over this issue.

[ealgeone]

What particular sin(s) did She commit?

We don't have a list of every sin she committed nor is one needed.

Paul made it clear...ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

Have you not read that part of Romans?

[ebb tide]

You're attempt at reasoning is....well, I hope you don't have to use logic in whatever field of work you're in.

Yet you won't answer the question: if Mary was born with original sin, why wasn't Her Son born with it?

Do believe in one miracle: that Christ was born of a virgin conceived by the Holy Ghost; but deny another miracle that that virgin was born without original sin?

I call that cherry-picking by Mary-haters.

[af_vet_1981]

The Hail Mary is a request by a sinner for Mary to pray to God for him.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts, Catholic chapter one, Protestant verses

[ebb tide]

We don't have a list of every sin she committed nor is one needed.

Who's "we"?

If you don't have list, or even a single sin as evidence, why do you choose to calumniate the Mother of God as a sinner?

[RegulatorCountry]

The Holy Spirit moved upon her. That’s what scripture tells us.

What pray tell does the Vatican tell you was the method of conception?

[af_vet_1981]

The Hail Mary is a request by a sinner for Mary to pray to God for him.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts, Catholic chapter one, Protestant verses nine to fourteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[ealgeone]

>>You're attempt at reasoning is....well, I hope you don't have to use logic in whatever field of work you're in.<<

Yet you won't answer the question: if Mary was born with original sin, why wasn't Her Son born with it?

Because He's sinless to begin with....or didn't you know that??

He didn't trade that in when He was conceived/born.

Do believe in one miracle: that Christ was born of a virgin conceived by the Holy Ghost; but deny another miracle that that virgin was born without original sin?

One of the miracles is recorded in Scripture...that Christ was born of a virgin.

The other that the virgin was born without original sin is not found in the Bible as already noted by Rome's own sources!

[RegulatorCountry]

Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior just as every human being who has ever walked the face of this earth has needed a Savior, other than Jesus Christ himself.

Familiarize yourself with the Book of Genesis regarding the source of sin and why Mary, too, was a sinner because she was born in sin. She couldn’t *not* be a sinner, but she could be forgiven.

[ebb tide]

Read the Apostle’s Creed.

Have you heard of it?

[ealgeone]

You may note all of these people were on earth at the time.

They were praying to God.

All prayer is directed to God.

[CodeToad]

I think people are ashamed, if not ignorant, of the gospels because they keep trying to claim they say something they do not.