Posted on 09/12/2017 11:21:25 AM PDT by pastorbillrandles
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Matthew 24:1-3)
Immediately after declaring to the Teachers, leaders and Shepherds of Israel that the Holy House of God was now empty, and that Israel would not see him again until they humbly acknowledged the national sin and confessed that Jesus was and is the Messiah of Israel sent by God and meeting the prophetic criterion in every detail, The Messiah left the Temple of the Lord for the final time.
Jesus virtually duplicated Ezekiel’s vision, of the Glory leaving the Holy Place, going out the Eastern gate and then Lingering over the Mount of Olives, until the cloud ascended to heaven. Jesus too left the Temple, through the eastern gate and went to the Mount of Olives, the site which he would eventually ascend to Heaven from, and to which He is prophesied to return.
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. (Zechariah 14:4)
It was at this point that his disciples marveled at the beauty of the Temple, it’s majestic and massive stones and architectural features. The second Temple was built in the days of Zechariah, Joshua the High priest and the Governor Zerubabbel, but had been remodeled by Herod, who was a despot indeed, but one of the greatest builders of the period.
See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Forty years after Jesus said this, a siege was erected around Jerusalem, in April, corresponding to Jesus’ trial and death, by the Romans. By August, the walls of jerusalem were breached and on Tisha Ba’Av, (the ninth of the month of Av) fighting broke out in the temple, a fire was started, vast amounts of Gold stored there melted and in the frenzy after the fight, Roman legionaries pried one stone off of another, (seeking melted gold) , thus fulfilling the Words of Jesus.
Josephus, Wars, Chapter 5 #7 Describing the burning of the temple and the Roman’s motives: “their hatred of the Jews, and a certain vehement inclination to fight them too hard for them also. Moreover, the hope of plunder induced many to go on; as having this opinion, that all the places within (the Temple) were full of money: and as seeing that all round about it was made of gold.”
One can still go to Jerusalem to this day and see the piles of massive Stones thrown down from the mount in fulfillment of Jesus words.
The disciples couldn’t fathom it, it was unthinkable that the House of God, the glorious Temple would be destroyed! They were astonished at Jesus words.
It was at this point, on the Mount of Olives that the disciples asked Jesus three questions , which form the structure of Matthew 24, Jesus’ teaching on the end times;
Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and of the end of the world?
These are three very distinct questions and the answers to them cover time, from 70 Ad to our very present day.
*When Shall These things be? Refers to the destruction of the Temple, and pall of it’s attendant horrors.
*What shall be the sign of thy coming? This is a question about Jesus’ glorification and exaltation. The disciples had no idea that Jesus would soon die, rise again and that there would be a two thousand year church age, after which Israel would be restored, and thatJesus would come to reign.
But Jesus had told the disciples all along , that though he would be humiliated and despised, one day he would be exalted and glorified, and would come to receive the Kingdom that is His.
And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.(Mark 10 :35-37)
What Shall be The Sign of the End of the Age? The Jews looked at time as being Two Aged; ‘this age’ and ‘the age to come’. The Apostles held the same view, (as we all should). Paul said ,”the Suffering of this present time, is not worthy to be compared to glory of the Age to Come”. Jesus called it ‘the Regeneration of all things’, because in it all would be made new.
The present age is the age of death and decay, yet it is also the ‘day of salvation’ an age in which grace and forgiveness are offered to mankind. The Age to come is the age of righteousness,and of the realized Kingdom of God and of the Son of man.
The two Ages briefly overlap, the one passes as the other emerges, like the Sunrise;
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.(Malachi 4:2)
The Disciples wanted to know the answer to these three questions, seemingly thinking they are all parts of a whole,and tied up in each other. Surely the destruction of the Temple portends the dawning of a new age, and will eventuate in the vindication and glory of the Messiah, Jesus! But they had no idea the length of the span, and that the events of 70 Ad would only be the beginning of a long night for the Jews, and a partial type of the events at the end of the world.
Joseph was in Egypt 22 years before being reunited with his family at age 39.
Sold at age 17, brought in to Pharaoh at age 30, 7 years of plenty, then 2 years into the famine.
Jacob was 130, so the year can be calculated from the ages already given in the Torah:
1948 (birth of Abraham) + 100 (birth of Isaac) + 60 (birth of Jacob) + 130 (age of Jacob) = 2238
At this time, Joseph said,
Gen 45
6. For these two years has the famine been in the land; and yet there are five years, when there shall neither be plowing nor harvest:
7. And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance:
They all came together in Egypt at this time, the 70 souls.
Then the timeline offers no distinct end mark for the completion of the famine. All those date markers but then what happened at the end of the five years.
22 years in Egypt. Plus yet another five.
Same pattern as the alef beit: 22 letters, and then five final letters.
The five final letters have their own values of 500 + 600 + 700 + 800 + 900 = 3500
The average value is 700, which is also the sum of the previous two letters (years): shin + tav.
But these final values are generally ignored, as they are not used for counting.
2238 + 3500 = 5738, which was 40 years ago.
Sunday, September 17, 1978
15 Elul, 5738
The Camp David Accords were signed by Egyptian President Anwar El Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin on 17 September 1978, following twelve days of secret negotiations at Camp David.[1] The two framework agreements were signed at the White House, and were witnessed by United States President Jimmy Carter. The second of these frameworks (A Framework for the Conclusion of a Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel) led directly to the 1979 Egypt–Israel Peace Treaty. Due to the agreement, Sadat and Begin received the shared 1978 Nobel Peace Prize.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords
America + Israel + peace with Egypt, add another 40 years [in the wilderness]...
Camp David. This is a Gentile David (or rather, two Davids Eisenhower, father and grandson), so the spelling is a transliteration of the English pronunciation of David. DAY (דיי) -VID (וויד).
Hence the David (דייוויד) of Camp David = 50, which is David (דוד) + 36.
Who Knows 50? The distinguished number of transcendence.
3500 = 50 x 70
The regular values of the letters add up to 280 = 40 x 7, 70 x 4
20 + 40 + 50 + 80 + 90
(+ 40)
Dwight David Eisenhower II (born March 31, 1948) is an American author, public policy fellow, professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and eponym of the U.S. Presidential retreat, Camp David.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Eisenhower
Wednesday, March 31, 1948
20 Adar II, 5708
David of Camp David turns 70 on Passover 5778.
pastorbill, I have a question concerning your analysis of the apostles’ questions of our Lord. You say:
“Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and of the end of the world?
These are three very distinct questions and the answers
to them cover time, from 70 Ad to our very present day”.
The THESE THINGS apostles asked him about were the same as the THESE THINGS in his statement: “See ye not all THESE THINGS?” speaking of the temple, and you’re right, their first question is in reference to the destruction of the temple. They’re asking for a TIME when that would occur, and of course, he will answer their question: “in this generation,” later in the chapter.
In Luke’s account, the disciples are said to have asked TWO questions:
1. Teacher, WHEN therefore shall THESE THINGS be?
2. …and what shall be the SIGN when THESE THINGS are
about to come to pass?
Aren’t the THESE THINGS in both their questions referring to the same things? The destruction of the temple, the same thing Jesus referred to when he used the same term in his statement? If not, why not? Why weren’t they asking for a TIME and a SIGN when the temple was destroyed and the age in which they were living ended?
This being true, Jesus’ answer wouldn’t refer to anything past their present generation and the destruction of the temple.
In your last sentence of part 6, how do you take the expression “end of the world”? Is it still the end of the age in your view?
Thanks for reading, and considering
The ones asking the questions, assumed that indeed they were all one question. In their mind I imagine they thought it was all the same event. The church was a yet unrevealed mystery, they had no idea that this present passage age would see Israel put in suspense , as well as a two thousand year period of church history. But in fact the answer is proof that the questions were not the same...They didn’t know what Jesus and the Father knew, but we do now. In 70 Ad the Jews didn’t say to Jesus, “Blessed is He that comes in the name of the LORD”, but they will when this age comes to an end. We are talking about two different perspectives, that of the ones asking the questions and the one answering them. I hope this helps, will elaborate if needed as able...
Yes the “end of the world is the end of the age” indeed. The Greek term is aion, for “age,” not kosmos, for “world.” The same phrase is used in Matthew 28:20. Whatever may be said of Jesus’ answers in Matthew 24, it is virtually certainly that the disciples could hardly have been asking about a second coming according to our concept, since they had not yet wrapped their minds around even his death or resurrection, much less a “second coming” at the “end of the world.”
I appreciate your reply. I think you’re right when you say that the disciples weren’t asking about a second coming as we take it—at that point, they didn’t even believe he was going away!
I also appreciate your take on the two ages: 1. “This age,” the age in which they lived, and 2. “the age to come.” Could we speak of those two ages as the Mosaic age and the Messiah’s age? The Mosaic age was about to end, in 40 years, and for those 40 years, the Mosaic age overlapped the Messiah’s age, which began at his resurrection, after which he had all authority in heaven and on earth.
When you speak of the end of the age, are you thinking of the approaching end of the Mosaic age or the Messiah’s age?
Thanks again for reading and considering.
Again, I appreciate your reply. When you say, “the answer is proof that the questions were not the same...,” please permit me ask you further.
1. Jesus first used the term “these things” in Mt. 23.36, when he pronounced judgment on his generation of Jews in vindication of the martyrs.
2. He then used it in Mt. 24.2 to describe the destruction of the temple.
3. The disciples used it twice in their questions for a TIME and A SIGN when “these things” were going to be fulfilled.
4. Jesus used it in Mt. 24.6 when he said, “THESE THINGS
must needs come to pass, but the end is not yet.” Wasn’t he still using the term to describe the coming judgment on his generation of Jews?
5. Mt. 24.8 - “THESE THINGS are the beginning of travail” - again, isn’t this the same subject he introduced and the disciples asked for a TIME and SIGN of?
6. Mt. 24.33 - “when ye see ALL THESE THINGS, know he is nigh, even at the doors?” - Isn’t he still talking about the same things?
7. Mt. 24.34 - “This generation shall not pass away, until ALL THESE THINGS” be accomplished.”
Why doesn’t the expression “these things” apply to the destruction of the temple, bringing an end to the Mosaic age, all the way through this chapter? And as Jesus said, all of it was going to be fulfilled in his generation.
Thanks again for reading and considering.
Thanks for the feedback,I appreciate your point. The problem is that not all of “these things”occurred in 70 Ad,including the final confession of Israel’s national sin, something slated for the end of this present age,see Zechariah 12:1-12
This is why I believe that. The scope of Jesus, answer extends all the way to this present day. also the “end of the age” does not refer to the end of the Mosaic law, rather it refers to the eschatology, the end of Satan,s reign on this earth, 2 Cor 4:1-4 and the dawning of the reign of Messiah on earth. There is an event in recent history which marked the sign of the end of the Age,which I will discuss shortly( WW one and its aftermath)
And thanks again for your thoughts as well. When you say, “The problem is that not all of “these things”occurred in 70 Ad,” I’m sure you see the problem:
Pastor Bill: “NOT ALL OF THESE THINGS occurred in 70 AD”
Jesus: “Verily (truly) I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till ALL THESE THINGS be accomplished.”
So even tho Jesus said this was a true statement, you’re saying that it wasn’t true. It didn’t happen.
PastorBill vs. Jesus is bad enough, but also, Jesus prophesied that all the things he discussed from Mt. 23.36 through 24.33 would be fulfilled in his generation. If that prophecy wasn’t fulfilled, then Jesus was a false prophet according to Dt. 18.20-22, and deserved to be put to death!
Doesn’t your assertion that all of Mt. 24 wasn’t fulfilled in Jesus’ generation justify Christ’s execution?
Thanks again for the discussion.
This generation refers to the parable of the fig tree,the generation which sees the fig tree come back to life, will not pass away until all these things be fulifilled
Where did Jesus EVER speak of a fig tree coming back to life?
In Lk. 21.29, after vv20ff, which I’m sure you take to be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in Jesus’ generation, Jesus said: “29 And he spake to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and ALL THE TREES:”
If, as you assert, the fig tree represented the generation when Israel would come back to life, what generations were represented by “all the trees,” Bill?
Jesus had no such thing in mind. He was merely pointing out that when you see a tree, any tree, putting forth leaves (in the spring), you know the summer is approaching, as he said in v30: “when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer (NOTE: NOT THE FIG TREE NOR ISRAEL COMING BACK TO LIFE) is now nigh. Then in v32, he again says, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished.”
Surely we don’t need to debate the meaning of the word “this,” do we? “This” meant that which is near, as opposed to “that,” which is far away. Jesus spoke of his generation, which was present, as opposed to the generation you’re thinking he was speaking of, 2000 years in the future. Amazing!
The Fig Tree was cursed by Jesus in Matthew 21:19 , a prophetic action demonstrating the coming judgment on the Nation of Israel, the same metaphor is used in Luke 13 as well. But the Fog tree will come to life again in the Last days. The Prophets of the OLD Testament virtually all predicted the rebirth and restoration of Israel as a sign of the End.
Bill, you asserted before that the fig tree would come to life again, and I asked you where Jesus ever said that the fig tree was going to come to life again, and you didn’t answer. Can’t you find it in the Bible, or are we supposed to just accept your bald assertion without proof?
When you speak of the last days, you are referring to the last days of what? In Ac. 2.16-17, Peter said the pouring out of the spirit on Pentecost as what Joel foretold when he spoke of the last days. Peter thought they were in the last days that very day, 2000 years ago. Do you believe he was? Please answer these two questions.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.(Matthew 32-33)
The FigTree becomes fruitful and indicates that Summer is nigh...this is connected to the fig tree He cursed in Matthew 21 and the Fig Tree which was to be cut down in Luke 13
As for the”LastDays” I agree that Peter and the Apostles knew that they were in the Last days as of Pentecost(Acts 2), but Paul , who also knew that, wrote of a final period, the “Latter Days” the time of the end, the final days before the Parousia
You’re right, Bill, Mt. 24.32-33 speaks of a fig tree, and Mt. 21 does too, but again, it’s pure assumption to assert they’re the same tree, and that this is a prophecy of that same fig tree returning to life.
What passage in Paul are you thinking of where he wrote of the final days before he Parousia?
Bill, I appreciate your entertaining my questions, but your material and your responses to me are just one baseless unscriptural assumption after another. Let me give you a few examples:
1. In Part 1, in the second paragraph, you assert that Jesus speaks of a judgment coming on the whole world at “the end of time.” Are you aware that the Bible nowhere uses the term “end of time”? It’s easy to prove a larger context to Mt. 24 if we grant that assumption. Can’t you prove it?
2. You assert that the Jewish state was dissolved until the very last of the last days. Please tell us what the term “last days” means to you. What is it the last days of?
3. In Part 3, you assert that the fig tree was an emblem of Israel, but you don’t make such an assumption in Lk. 21.29 when Jesus speaks of “all the trees.” To be consistent, why don’t you?
4. You assert that the fig tree would return to life at the dawn of the final generation. I asked when Jesus EVER said the fig tree would return to life, and you gave us silence. Just another assumption.
5. You assert that when Jesus spoke of “this generation” he was speaking of the final generation, like we don’t know what “this” means. Jesus never spoke of the final generation.
6. In Part 4, you say that Mt. 24 extends from Jesus’ own day all the way to the very end of time as we know it (the Bible knows nothing of it) and the final judgment. Where does the term “final judgment” occur in the Bible? If you can’t find it, it’s just another assumption.
7. You speak of Rabbinism, where an unwritten “oral” law actually superceded the Law of Moses. If you can’t find where the “end of time” and the fig tree “coming back to life” occur in the Bible, isn’t that you just giving your own “oral law” instead of the Bible? To top it off, you quote Edersheim calling such “blasphemous self-assertion”! Still later, you disparage the Jews of Jesus’ day of “multiplying rival sources of authority (Oral Law) and neglecting to teach scripture itself.” With every baseless assumption you make, aren’t you doing the same thing? You’re old enough to know that “he who slings mud loses ground.” More seriously, you’re doing what Jesus accused the Jews of, “making void the Word of God for tradition,” your own tradition.
8. In Part 6, you resolutely refuse to accept the equivalence of “these things” in Mt. 23-24, and Jesus’ prophecy that “all these things would be fulfilled in this (his) generation.”
I’m truly interested in your material on Mt. 24, and have learned things from it, but I think everyone would like less “blasphemous self-assertion” and more scripture.
It is reasonable to assert that within days after cursing a fig tree as a prophetic act, Jesus would again refer to it,knowing the disciples would understand the reference,much more reasonable than having Jesus bring up a fig tree randomly, and without specific meaning,to the same disciples who had witnessed the cursing of the fig tree. A fig tree also stands for Israel in Luke 13,these are not baseless assertionsFNU. are you arguing from Preterist perspective? I will work through as able you other points
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