No One Knows The Day Or Hour

Unsealed ^ | 8/24/17 | Gary

[amessenger4god]

Satan twists God's message by elevating one Scripture at the expense of all others.  Sadly, many Christians play right along with him.  Interpreting Scripture is not "this and not that", but "line upon line".  In other words, we need to stop shredding Scriptures, ignoring others, and assuming what they mean, and start trusting every Scripture for what they plainly say.  I see many examples of this assumptive Scripture-twisting in the Church and I've argued that it is the primary reason divisions exist within Christianity.  I've written a lot about the need for faithful, comprehensive exegesis in regards to the topics of faith vs. works and the partial-rapture doctrine (see here, here, and here).

What I want to talk about now is the ad infinitum repeat of "no one knows the day or hour" (Matt. 24:36, Mk. 13:32) as an argument against the Revelation 12 Sign.  For those of us watching for Jesus' appearing, what confuses us the most is why so many Christians base their entire theory of eschatology on just two verses when there are literally dozens of other Scriptures that paint a more complete picture.  Even more - over a quarter of the Bible is prophecy.  There are literally dozens and dozens of signs listed in Scripture that indicate the nearness of Jesus' return along with a number of commands to "Watch!" (Matt. 24:42-44, 25:10, 13, Mk. 13:35-37, Lk. 12:37-39, 21:36, Rev. 3:3).

A prime example of how satan twists Scripture can be found in Luke 4:10 during the Temptation of Jesus.  Urging Jesus to throw Himself off the Temple to test God, satan quoted Psalm 91:11: "He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully."  Jesus retorted with Deuteronomy 6:16: "It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.' "  Those who sow discord within the Church use what I'll call the satanic hermeneutic: "this and not that" rather than Jesus' comprehensive hermeneutic: "line upon line" (Is. 28:13).  I think many Christians are using the wrong hermeneutic when it comes to "no one knows".

Firstly, "knows" (οἶδεν in the Greek) is in the perfect tense in Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32.  The perfect tense describes something that was true or completed in the past and is still presently true, but not necessarily true in the future.  In other words, no one knew the day or hour, Jesus included, before He spoke those words and no one presently knew the day or hour at the time Jesus spoke those words.  However, His statement cannot be taken as a dogmatic statement about whether or not we can know the day or hour in the future.  It's not in the future tense.  It clearly doesn't say "no one will know" or "no one will ever know".  Compare to the future tense of this Greek verb in Hebrews 8:11.  These two verses do not give us enough information to determine whether or not Believers in the 21st century can know.  For the answer to that question we need to look to other Scriptures - line upon line.

Secondly, context is king.  What was Jesus referring to when He uttered the words "no one knows"?  The rapture?  The Abomination of Desolation?  His second coming?  The end of the world?  There are a number of significant prophetic events still to come and blindly applying "no one knows" to just one event (the rapture) seems like a stretch.  The context in the Olivet Discourse could point to any of these events:

1. The rapture.  Some pre-tribulation proponents see Matthew 24:36-51 as applying to the rapture or the general beginning of the Day of the LORD.  This view has fallen out of favor, but if true then the context for "no one knows" might be the rapture.

2. The end of the world.  The verses immediately preceding Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32 mention the end of heaven and earth.  This is an event that occurs at the end of Christ's 1,000-year reign (Revelation 21:1).  Or a differing interpretation would say at the time of Christ's return, which is at the end of the seven year Tribulation.

3. The second coming.  This view is the futurist scholarly favorite for several reasons.  First, because the disciples asked Jesus three questions that have little if anything to do with the rapture: "when will this happen [the destruction of the Second Temple], and what will be the sign of your coming [Jesus' return to establish the Kingdom] and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3).  Second, because the signs described in the Olivet Discourse seem to describe events during the Tribulation, some types and shadows of which occurred leading up to the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.  Third, because the rapture was not clearly revealed until the Apostle Paul delivered the message to the primarily Gentile Church (1 Cor. 15:51-52, 1 Thess. 4:13-18).

Thirdly, if #1 was the correct context, "no one knows the day or hour" may have been an idiom for the Feast of Trumpets.  Of the seven major feasts of the LORD (Lev. 23), the Feast of Trumpets is the only divine appointment that begins on the new moon.  While the case for this being an actual Jewish idiom is not unquestionably established, the logic behind it is pretty sound.  The first sighting of the waxing crescent of the moon by two witnesses began the Feast of Trumpets.  The sighting cannot be perfectly predicted because of atmospheric conditions and so Yom Teruah (the Feast of Trumpets / Day of Shouting) can begin on either of two days, which is why the Jews celebrate what is supposed to be "the first day of the seventh month" (Lev. 23:23-25) over a two-day period because it is "the day no one knows the day or hour".

Now here is where the story gets more interesting.  If you adhere to the aforementioned satanic hermeneutic ("this and not that") then there are a number of Scriptures that present a real problem for "no one knows" - an apparent contradiction:

Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard--and keep it and repent. If therefore you shall not watch, I will come like a thief, and you shall not know at what hour I will come upon you.

- Revelation 3:3

According to Revelation 3:3 those in the Church who are watching will know when Jesus comes for them.  Not only a general timeframe, but the very hour.  The Greek word for "hour", hóra, is the same word used in Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32.  Wow, that sounds like a complete reversal!

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

- Revelation 1:1

The glorified Christ delivered the message of Revelation to the Apostle John to show or reveal new knowledge to the Church - specifically the knowledge of what will happen in the future when Jesus returns.  Question: was this revelation given before or after Jesus uttered the words "no one knows"?  I think we both know the answer.

Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

- Hebrews 10:25

Hebrews 10:25 tells us that we will see the Day approaching.  The Greek word for "see" means more than just the physical act of seeing with physical eyes.  It can also mean to perceive or understand.

But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

- 1 Thessalonians 5:4

How many times have you heard that Jesus is coming like a thief in the night?  He certainly is (1 Thess. 5:2-3), but not for us (1 Thess. 5:4).  How much clearer could Paul be in the above Scripture?  We are awake, watching, and walking in the light, so Jesus' appearing will not surprise us like a thief.  We can see the Day approaching.

So how do we reconcile the Scriptures, line upon line?  This is my best understanding:

1. Before Jesus was crucified His disciples asked Him when the Second Temple would be destroyed and when He would return to establish His Kingdom.  It is unlikely that they yet understood the two events were separate.  It is likely that they were unaware of the yet-to-be-fully-revealed pre-tribulational rapture of the Church (though some Old Testament Scriptures pointed to it like Isaiah 26:17-21).  They didn't understand an intervening dispensation of grace would cause a pause in Daniel's 70 weeks of years.  This is further evidenced by the fact the Apostles were still wrestling with these questions well into the book of Acts (Acts 15:1-21; see also Romans 11:1-32).

2. Jesus answers their questions quite literally, describing the events leading up to His second coming - His physical return to earth to establish His Kingdom.  Therefore the context is the events transpiring during the Tribulation.  Some of these events were foreshadowed by events leading up to the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, so Jesus' Olivet Discourse effectively answers both questions in one fell swoop.

3. When Jesus was saying "no one knows the day or hour" He was communicating several things.  First, at the time He spoke those words no one presently living (Himself included) could determine the exact day or hour of any of these future events.  Second, the Day of the LORD would come for most (but not all) people like a thief - hence the repeated command to watch.  Third, this statement may have incidentally foreshadowed the timing of the rapture of the Church on a future Feast of Trumpets.

4. Jesus was later crucified for our sins.  He rose from the dead and 40 days later ascended into Heaven.  When He ascended He received back the full glory that He had with God before the incarnation (Jn. 17:5, Eph. 1:20, 4:10, 1 Peter 1:21; see also Jn. 1:1, 8:58, Heb. 10:5).  This would necessarily include omniscience.  Certainly Jesus knew the day and hour of every future event once He was back in Heaven.

5. In His re-glorified state Jesus delivered all previously withheld prophetic knowledge to the Church (Rev. 1:1, 22:10; see also Dan. 12:4), except for the meaning of the "seven thunders" (Rev. 10:3-4).  There is a stark and complete reversal: prophecy sealed (Dan. 12:4) and then prophecy unsealed (Rev. 22:10).  No one can know (Matt. 24:36, Mk. 13:32) and now you better know (Rev. 3:3).  It couldn't be clearer.

Mockers inside and outside the Church are using just a handful of Scriptures at the expense of all others.  They are choosing to be willfully ignorant.  They are also leveling two false accusations, which tells me that their reasoning is not coming from the Holy Spirit, but from a much darker place:

1. The Revelation 12 Sign is astrology.  No Christian proponent of the Revelation 12 Sign is worshiping or bowing down to the stars.  Neither are they divining their life with the horoscope.  The astrology accusation is patently false, a lie of the worst kind, and at complete odds with Scripture (Gen. 1:14, Job 9:9, 38:31-32, Ps. 19:1-2, Amos 5:8, Joel 2:30-31, Lk. 21:11, 25, Rev. 12:1-2).

2. Talking about the Revelation 12 Sign is date setting.  As someone well-acquainted with the teachings of the various proponents of the 9/23 alignment, I can say with confidence that neither they nor I are saying the rapture/second coming/end of the world will definitely happen on September 23rd.  There are a few exceptions - a few people saying the rapture will definitely happen on September 21st or 23rd, but for the most part the only definitive assertion made is that a specific sign described in Revelation 12:1-2 will be fulfilled on September 23rd.  The evidence is crystal clear for that.

I also want to point out that the Great Sign is not happening in a vacuum.  Let's not be so full of doubts and consumed with the cares of this world that we forget the fact that Jesus really is coming back.  And soon.  We've all been very focused on this September sign, but let's not forget the other overwhelming and mounting evidence that the end of the age is upon us:

THE PARABLE OF THE FIG TREE

AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH

20 SIGNS WE'VE ARRIVED AT THE END OF THE AGE

10 REASONS JESUS WILL COME BACK IN OUR LIFETIME

19 REASONS THE RAPTURE COULD HAPPEN IN 2017

So if you want to remain blind and ignorant then God will allow you to be.  Let that day come upon you like a thief.  If you want to latch on to two Scriptures at the expense of everything else and in the face of all of God's signs and wonders, then that is your choice, but don't expect those of us watching to join the unscriptural charade.

[FatherofFive]

Did Christ say that he is the branch, or that he is like a branch? No confusion here.

Christ never said I is the vine or I is the Branch

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

[FatherofFive]

Is and am are both conjunctions from the verb “to be”. They are the same word in different persons.

Is is not the same as am.

[FatherofFive]

The wine and unleavened bread are symbolic of His body... not literal flesh and blood.

Except that Christ said this is my body. He never said this represents my body. Show me from Scripture that Christ said this represents my body

[.45 Long Colt]

I absolutely deny it. That kind of wooden literalism misses the spiritual point being made. The Gospel of John records seven figurative declarations Jesus made of Himself — “the bread of life” (6:48), “the light of the world” (8:12), “the door” (10:9), “the good shepherd” (10:11), “the resurrection and the life” (11:25), “the way, the truth and the life” (14:6), and “the true vine” (15:1). He also referred to His body as the temple (2:19).

[Preachin']

I am not sure if you know this, but “am” and “is” are both renditions of the verb”to be”. I “am” is first person singular and he/she/it “is” is second person singular. I M reminded of the Princess Bride:”That word you keep using... I don’t think it means what you think it means”

[SaveFerris]

Correct.

“He is”, “I am”, “You are” are metaphor.

“like”, “as a”, are simile.

Shoot, even “Fletch Lives” got that one correct (leftist Chevy Chase notwithstanding”.

“It was like an alligator shoe on the freeway. If you’ll forgive the metaphor”.

“It’s a simile, to be precise”.

---

“She’s a brick house”. Is she actually a brick house? No, it’s metaphor. If we can go to disco or R&B. Notice, I did not use rap, for it butchers the English language; suitable for low-I.Q. consumption.

[FatherofFive]

I am not sure if you know this, but “am” and “is” are both renditions of the verb”to be”. I “am” is first person singular and he/she/it “is” is second person singular. I M reminded of the Princess Bride:”That word you keep using... I don’t think it means what you think it means”

Is is not am.

look at the words is and am in Scripture. I am the vine does not mean I is the vine.

[SaveFerris]

s/b (leftist Chevy Chase notwithstanding).

[Just mythoughts]

God gave us a brain.. Christ did not slit his wrists and collect blood, nor did He chop off any of His flesh. He used wine literally and unleavened bread, literally.

[FatherofFive]

He also referred to His body as the temple (2:19).

Yes. You are confusing 'is' with 'am'

[Preachin']

That’s because the word is never belongs to the word I and am never belongs to he/she/it. It’s simple verb conjugation, friend.

[editor-surveyor]

.
“The Revelation 12 Sign” Happened 2000 years ago.

It was a sign to Daniel's disciples, who were knowledgeable in the scriptures, and understood Biblical astronomy.

John was told to write what was, what is, and what is to come. Chapter 12 of Revelation is a parenthetical look back in time.

Yeshua’s disciples were told exactly which day on the Biblical calendar he would return, but not which year. Tishri 1 is the Biblical date. Dusk is the approximate Jerusalem time, as that is when the new moon of Tishri will appear in the darkening sky.

We now also know the year: 6024.

If you have no desire to know, perhaps you have no desire to know the rest of what the scriptures tell us either. You probably want to live under the mushroom of the “Saved by Grace” lie too.

By the grace of Yehova, Yeshua’s bride will be saved by their faith, which will continue to the end, as is required to be saved at the day of Trumpets (Tishri 1).
.

[Preachin']

I think you need to look up the verb “to be” and come back again. It’s the silliest irregular verb in the English language.

[ebb tide]

The wine and unleavened bread are symbolic of His body... not literal flesh and blood.

Are you even a Catholic? Yes or No?

If "No", it explains a lot.

[FatherofFive]

I think you need to look up the verb “to be” and come back again. It’s the silliest irregular verb in the English language.

I think you need to understand the difference between "is " and "am"

'I is the vine' does not mean 'I am the vine'

please show me the difference

[.45 Long Colt]

Don’t waste your time, I’ll never agree with the papist view. It’s time to fire up the grill, so I’m not having this debate again now. Instead, I’ll link to a short, clear, and well-done presentation of the gospel. If you won’t watch it, I pray someone will. I bet there are many FReepers who realize they are lost and in need of a savior.

http://unpopularthemovie.com

[editor-surveyor]

.
Imminent is exactly nonsense, as Paul told the Thessalonians.

He listed things that “Must come to pass” before “That day.”

None of those things have yet come to pass.

While we are at the beginning of the apostasy of the “falling away,” The “man of sin” has not yet stood on the mercy seat of the Ark, declaring himself to be “God.”

.

[FatherofFive]

yeah. Stop talking when Scripture shows your man-made beliefs are wrong

Enjoy the barby

[Preachin']

Once again, is and are simply are two ways of saying the same thing. They are not interchangeable because one belongs to “I” and the other belongs to “he/she/it”. You are thoroughly misapplying them. You are the only person in this thread who has no idea what I am saying here.

[.45 Long Colt]

Other than you’re a dupe of Rome and a poor exegete, you haven’t shown anything whatsoever. I learned years ago it’s mostly a waste of time to engage these arguments here.