Posted on 07/12/2017 11:36:21 AM PDT by MHGinTN
The following is 'an' essay on Luke 21, as relating to The Rapture of Believers and Jesus's Prophecy for Jerusalem. Another thread is stuck where this would have been posted as a response. I'll ping the freepers who might have interest. The essay is long, so it will be divided into to posts, the body of the thread then the body of comments.
Before setting to this post, I listened repeatedly to Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, having gone to bed listening to Matthew 24 from the Andrew Scourby reading of the King James Bible. Much diverging opinion exists regarding the timing of the Rapture of The Bride of Christ / The Body of Christ.
Discussions over the Gospel handling of end times is sometimes heated and posters appear to be 'posting past each other'. I will take Luke 21 and seek to use that passage to clarify some issues.
Luke 21:5 And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which you behold, the days will come, in which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
This is what happened in 70 AD, as Jesus foretold. What follows must be considered in light of whom Jesus was addressing in attendance at the Temple, and also for the longer view of His message to us 'non-Jews' nearly 2000 years later.
continued below
Notice, the questions are not specifically asking about the end times, rather the questions are related to what Jesus said about the end of the Temple they were marveling upon.
8 And he said, Take heed that you be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draws near: go not therefore after them. 9 But when you shall hear of wars and tumults, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not yet.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in various places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
These are familiar imagery as seen in Mark 13 and Matthew 24. BUT Jesus shifts back from end times / Day of the Lord focus, to the near future. His teaching in this specific way it is said allowed a large number of Jews to escape Jerusalem BEFORE Tacitus and Vespasian razed the city and the Temple burned to the ground. The following verses are specific to the near future, the trials of the Apostles as the Gospel is begun to be spread across the planet.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn out to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand what you shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to contradict nor resist.
16 And you shall be betrayed both by parents, and brothers, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not a hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience you will gain your souls.[He that endures unto the end shall be saved!]
Notice in what follows that the phrasing is so close to what you read in Matthew 24 in places and in Mark 13. Jesus is about to give Prophecy for the near term fate of Jerusalem, which was surrounded by the Roman Legions while Vespasian returned to Rome to settle issues of the Caesar, leaving his son, Tacitus, to command the gradual encircling. THEN JESUS shifts to the long view from that near view.
20 And when you shall see Jerusalem surrounded with armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them who are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter into it. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that nurse children, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The underlined portion is what Jesus now focuses upon, the end of the times of the Gentiles. The shift is also to the non-Jewish focus, from what was a specific focus upon Jerusalem and the believers in Him who could escape the Roman holocaust of AD 70.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking toward those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
So far the passage could support the pre-wrath or pre-trib perspective. Let's go further, deeper. .
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near.
To whom is JESUS saying 'look up for your redemption draws near? Not Christians, because when we believed and followed Him we were redeemed, then, as evidenced by the Holy Spirit entering the human spirit and the behavior mechanism that is the soul began to change, to conform under His Spirit raising us up in the way that we should go as living members of HIS Body of Believers! JESUS is giving a specific clue to the Jews (to be understood by any when the season arrives), that the nation's redemption is near 'when these things BEGIN to come to pass'!
As an aside from my opinion, the Rapture of The Body of Christ will set into motion cataclysmic effects, with planes suddenly pilotless, trains out of control, trucks and cars suddenly without a driver, etc. This chaos is why the world will beg 'the man on the white horse with a bow in hand but no arrows' to re-establish order and end the famines in the cities and burbs caused by the massive collapse of the electromagnetically dependent societies.Jesus now gives the parable of the fig Tree, relating specifically to the Jewish focus on 'your Redemption draweth nigh'. This parable relates the signs of what followed the Rapture, to the seven years of Jacob's Trouble.' This parable is NOT for Christians, to become expectant of redemption because we the Believers are ALREADY REDEEMED. We have had eternal life since we believed and turned to follow Him!
29 And he spoke to them a parable; Look at the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now near at hand. 31 So likewise you, when you see these things come to pass, know that the kingdom of God is near at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
The generation of JEWS who witness these things coming to pass shall not pass away until all is fulfilled. JESUS is speaking to and of the Jewish Redemption as a nation in that specific phrasing.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be weighed down with carousing, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
The beginning of the signs, coming upon 'them' unawares? The season, the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation timeline, including the Rapture of already redeemed Believers before the start of the Tribulation, is the only scenario for His audience that makes sense here. He is cautioning the Jews of the generation who witness the beginning of these signs!
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. [Dr. Tommy Ice uses 'testing' rather than snare, I suspect because the term is found in Rev 3:10] 36 Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
37 And in the daytime he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives. 38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, to hear him.
That is the Temple Discourse, delivered the day that the later Olivet Discourse is given. The reference to crossing from the Temple down the path and up to the Mount of Olives, and the Disciples James, John, Peter, and Andrew asking more specifically about The End Times indicates the two discourses were on the same day, two days from Passover.
Forgive me if I do not make responses to all that may wish to debate the essay. I offer it for consideration, in an effort to tone down the discussions on the Rapture and end times which are approaching us faster than we might want.
Bible events have a way of reprising themselves in patterns. God and the devil both have a certain modus operandi with respect to a sinful world, and as sinners come on the scene and leave it, the patterns repeat. To try to see what is going on, one has to look not only at the small patterns but at the large ones, and look to the Lord in general to open one’s mind.
True enough, a snare from one point of view can be a testing from another point of view.
Through the grace of God given in His love, believers can avoid the snare, and so the snare will prove to have been a testing (which is passed).
Luke 21 is a companion of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 or the 7 trumps. First sign of the return of our Savior is the great tribulation of mass deception and boy is it ever on. Now, seriously, why would Christ need to ‘remove’ His church because of mass deception or as Paul uses the word apostasy.
Not a whole lot to debate.
Church in this instance may mean true honest believers who were deceived by a denominations teaching.
I’d suggest looking at things according to degree.
We’ve been spoiled in America, and somewhat so in Europe, by Christianization. By mores that arose in the wake of sheer gospel belief. But the mores themselves did not entail sheer gospel belief, and I hope I am making my message clear here. The salt became unsalty.
I think we can look at the bible and say no, we haven’t seen the apex of mass deception even by historical measure.
If we've been deceived, how would we know?
True, it is a companion, where Luke 21 deals with the end times. It is also a stand alone for the Prophecy of near term events, like the treatment of the Apostles and the body of believers, and destruction of Jerusalem and the Jews being dispersed into all lands, which happened in 70AD and beyond.
Watch that excuse, because it’ll get you doubting even the starkest witnesses of the grace and love of God, because “the devil might be fooling us.” And ironically, glorify the devil.
Been there, done that, permanently discarded it when God elevated the witnesses to an unmistakable measure.
Because God cannot mix Law with Grace?
But practically speaking. You couldn’t even believe snything from the bible then. You will have gutted the entire concept of faith.
Let me liken it to another thing that is frequently said. That if God does not destroy America in fire and brimstone, He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.
Stop. Fact check, reality check. And practicality check: this would automatically rule out a renewal, a revival, because “America has been too bad.” But look at the circumstances. Not even 10 righteous men left... today, we would call that believers. Starting to look like a different proposition now, right?
But it’s an illustration of how things can have been far, far, worse in the past — the bible even saying so — and yet we blithely say, oh we’ve gone all the way to hell. Because our threshold to finally damn is a lot, lot shorter than the Lord’s.
quote-I think we can look at the bible and say no, we haven’t seen the apex of mass deception even by historical measure.
There’s mass deception today, HiTech.
How many falsely believe Christ died for our sins on Good Friday, according to rome?
How many believe rome’s ‘friday’ is the Father’s 6th Day?
Another Jesus has been created, simply using a false calendar, and having the whole world follow it.
That’s pretty deceitful..pretty subtle too.
The lie will be so clever that it would Almost deceive even the elect who are they in the Tribulation coming to believe Jesus is Messiah.
These are not the Ekklesia, they are of the number receiving spirit salvation and showing up in Heaven during the Daniel seventieth week.
The lie will be so clever that it would Almost deceive even the elect who are they in the Tribulation coming to believe Jesus is Messiah.
These are not the Ekklesia, they are of the number receiving spirit salvation and showing up in Heaven during the Daniel seventieth week.
Christ did not warn of ISIS religious deception, or any other of the many religious 'isms', He warned about those that come in His name sewing deception. Thus it is imperative to know what the deception is and its spiritual source to not be deceived. The 'rapture' doctrine seems to fence itself around deceptive parameters. It makes no Christ sense, to ignore the plight of the multitude of Christians presently in the Middle East being slaughter, to not be afforded the same 'rapture' protection some have reserved for themselves.
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