Posted on 07/08/2017 4:12:04 PM PDT by Catmom
Have been attending a Latin Rite parish for about four months now. The last time I went to confession the priest suggested I make an appointment to make a general confession because I admitted to feeling overwhelmed by all the sins of my past life since I had returned to the faith later in life and didn't feel like the priest at my previous, Novus Ordo parish took such matters seriously enough. All such suggestions will be much appreciated. I'm going through an unpleasant time but I know it's because taking my faith more seriously has served to show me how much time I've wasted and how much I have to ammend for.
That’s no excuse. She should have stayed for a few minutes to thank everyone by pinging “All”. It was not considerate or proper to start a thread for her own benefit and then drop out.
Catholic doctrine and teaching states that Jesus is the one Redeemer, Mediator, and Advocate; and that Mary’s titles of Mediatrix and Advocatrix gives her only a secondary role in cooperation with the saving mission of Christ. It is not stated anywhere in Catholic doctrine that these titles give Mary the same status as Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
The Catholic bashes on the religion forum are well aware of your point.
This is just typical of the hypocrisy endemic to this religion forum as “mind reading” (by definition, as Catholics have repeatedly clarified the Church’s position) is specifically prohibited, yet allowed for the bashers.
Further, how this kind of provocation is NOT considered a “personal attack” as all Catholics on this forum are persons, just goes to show the situation you’re dealing with.
By giving her these titles, among others, Roman Catholicism is indeed saying that.
When the Fifth Marian dogma is approved, and I predict it will one day, then it will become official.
If one reads the RM's guidelines on what is or is not a personal attack one would understand the difference.
But as the RM notes regarding open forums:
Posters may argue for or against beliefs, deities, religious authorities, etc. They may tear down other’s beliefs. They may ridicule. “Open” RF debate is often contentious.
It requires thick skin. A poster must be able to make his points while standing his ground, suffering adverse remarks about his beliefs - or letting them roll off his back.
Members of religions which are as much culture as belief sometimes take religious debate personally. If you keep getting your feelings hurt because other posters ridicule or disapprove or hate what you hold dear, then you are too thin-skinned to be involved in “open” RF debate. You should IGNORE “open” RF threads altogether and instead post to RF threads labeled “prayer” “devotional” “caucus” or “ecumenical.”
With almost twenty years of FReeping under my belt I don't need advice from you. How is it "tearing down ones beliefs" to continually harangue other posters about what they DO NOT believe, particularly after the matter has been clarified ad nauseum.
Furthermore, engaging in criticism of things like "The Real Presence" is perfectly fine, but accusing one who believes that doctrine of being a "cannibal" IS a personal attack regardless of what rule it's cloaked under.
One more thing.
How is it anything but hypocrisy to advise posters to the religion forum to be “thick-skinned” when this forum has THE MOST restrictive rules of any forum on FR?
The necessity for such contradictory advise is nothing but a smokescreen for differential enforcement.
It's not advice from me. It's from the RM's page.
You don't like the rules take it up with management.
By giving her these titles, among others, Roman Catholicism is indeed saying that.
No matter how many times you make this assertion, you will never find it stated in the doctrine of the Catholic Church that Mary has the same status as Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that Jesus Christ is the “one mediator between God and the human race.” Through his sacrificial offering he has become high priest and unique mediator who has gained for us access to God’s saving grace for humanity. It further states that Mary is sometimes called Mediatrix in virtue of her cooperation in the saving mission of Christ, who alone is the unique mediator between God and humanity.
Lucem gentium states:
- The titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix do not take away from dignity of Christ as the one Mediator.
- No creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer.
- The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary.
I am not totally comfortable with the Fifth Marian Dogma and I hope that it is not approved. But even it acknowledges the subordinate role that Mary plays in cooperation with Jesus, who is the one Mediator. It does not put Mary on an equal status with Jesus.
Roman Catholics seem to like to have this issue both ways. They want to give Mary all of the accolades and have the idols of her and prayers to her and when called on it they resort to something along the lines of what you've noted.
Mary is accorded far more to her in Roman Catholicism which is not recorded in the NT. Her titles, given by Roman Catholicism, do not start appearing until ~ 3rd century.
When I read things like this form St. Alphonsus de' Ligouri, a Roman Catholic bishop, who was declared to be a Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius IX in 1871, it is very difficult to accept what you say.
I've not seen any Roman Catholic denounce what he's said as being inaccurate.
Are you willing to denounce what he's written below? (bold and paragraph mine for emphais)
That is, O Lady, it is true that all the Saints desire our salvation, and pray for us; but the love, the tenderness, that thou showest us in Heaven, in obtaining for us, by thy prayers, so many mercies from God, obliges us to acknowledge that in Heaven
we have but one Advocate,
and that is thyself, and that thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our welfare.
The Glories of Mary, p 158 (google books)
No matter how many disclaimers you want to add this is in contradiction of the New Testament.
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5 NASB
He is also on record as quoting St. Bonaventure, "No one can enter Heaven unless by Mary, as though through a door."
There is nothing in the NT supporting this.
Liguori also writes: Thou art the dispenser of all graces, our salvation is in thy hands.
Again, there is nothing in the NT supporting this. In fact, it stands in contradiction of the NT.
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. James 1:17 NASB
Are you willing to say what a Roman Catholic bishop, declared to be a Doctor of the Church, has written is wrong?
I can certainly understand why you would not be comfortable with the Fifth Marian dogma. But I predict it will be approved.
I agree with Pope Benedict XVI...the the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.
That can be said for all of the Marian dogmas based on a study of Scripture.
Did you ever try to bring someone to faith in Jesus? Well guess what: you were a mediator. Ever prayed to God on someone's behalf? Well guess what: you were an advocate.
Are you raising yourself to the level of God when you do those things?
I apologize to everyone who took the time to respond to my vanity thread on this issue and did not receive a timely response from me.
Not to make excuses, but I was very busy at work this weekend. I worked two twelve hour shifts and was very tired. Also, I will be retiring from a near forty year career in nursing this week. Retirement is a big transition for anyone and tends to focus ones thoughts on what is to come in the remainder of ones life.
I also seem to have made some folks uncomfortable or concerned with posting such personal issues on FR. But I’ve been on FR since 2004 and trust my fellow freepers to have better judgment in today’s world than most.
Again, thanks to all for the time you took to respond. I shall be reading everyone’s responses carefully.
Thank you, Catmom.
Hopefully the responses were beneficial and helpful to you. God bless you.
Did you ever try to bring someone to faith in Jesus? Well guess what: you were a mediator. Ever prayed to God on someone's behalf? Well guess what: you were an advocate.
Are you raising yourself to the level of God when you do those things?
The meaning of mediator in the NT is this:
μεσίτης (mesités) 3316 mesÃtÄ“s (from 3319 /mésos, "in the middle") – properly, an arbitrator ("mediator"), guaranteeing the performance of all the terms stipulated in a covenant (agreement). HELPS Word-studies
The New Testament accords Jesus in this capacity...never Mary nor anyone else in the questions you raise.
The meaning of Advocate in the NT is this:
παράκλητος (paraklétos) 3875 paráklÄ“tos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléÅ, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation
In the NT only Jesus and the Holy Spirit are noted as Advocate.
As created beings we are incapable of fulfilling these roles.
Christians are all called to be a witness on behalf of Christ and to share the Gospel.
Catmom: I am also in the process of preparing for a general confession. Someone suggested a book which I don't have handy right now, but if you want, I can PM it to you.
The Church gives Mary a singular dignity above any other creature, that she is above all the saints. But the Church never puts Mary on an equal footing with God. Every thing she does comes from Him.
“The Glories of Mary” was written in this context. Liguori tells us that Jesus is the only mediator of justice between men and God, who in virtue of His merits can, and according to His promises will, obtain for us pardon and divine grace. He further states that the eternal Father has given us Mary for our advocate along with Jesus Christ. Her advocacy is only through Jesus Christ in His divine majesty, which dwells in Him as God.
So yes, Mary is regarded above any other human being. But the Church has never given her the same status as Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Without Jesus, Mary’s role does not exist.
You can keep spinning it anyway you want. Bottom line is Roman Catholicism has elevated Mary to something not accorded to her in Scripture.
“Well, it appears you got your apology”.
I solicited no apology. Catmom and I have a nice raport.
You can keep spinning it anyway you want. Bottom line is Roman Catholicism has elevated Mary to something not accorded to her in Scripture.
I agree that the Church has accorded to Mary things that have no direct basis in Scripture. The Church has never denied that; it believes that these things are divinely revealed through Tradition, handed down orally from Apostolic times. It is not my intention to spin that one way or another. It is what it is.
Bottom line in this discussion is that your statement that “Roman Catholicism has very subtly raised Mary to the status of Jesus and the Holy Spirit” is wrong. The Church has never asserted or implied that Mary has the same status as Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Church has always stated that any role Mary has is handed to her from God, and that without God, her role does not exist.
Perhaps not explicitly, but when someone writes:
It seems that she doesn’t have the courtesy to thank people for their help and advice or even reply to them. That is improper and actually, rude.
that strongly implies the need for her to give one.
But I'm not going to continue to argue with you about this.
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