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To: metmom
Error was creeping into the early church right from the get go. Paul addressed it in his letters even.

Of course error tried to creep in. But you assume it succeeded, and you don't have a stitch of historical evidence to back that claim up. What early Christian writer ever said the whole Church fell to error? What was the error? When did it happen? Who were the main figures?

I hear these vague accusations but I never see anyone back them up with historical facts.

Proximity in time to the early church is no guarantee of being error free or having an extra special ability to *correctly* interpret Scripture or know what the apostles meant when they said something.

St Clement and St. Polycarp were taught by the Apostles themselves in person. They had a privileged position which you and I will never have. They were able to listen to a teaching and say: "No, Peter never taught that" or "Yes, John taught the same."

And you betray the fundamental weakness of your argument by saying "especially 200-300 years later."

If we are going to dismiss Ambrose and Augustine and Chrysostom for being 200-300 years later, then shouldn't I dismiss you with even more prejudice, 2000 years later? You who aren't even a native Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew speaker, who didn't grow up in the Near East or the Roman Empire where all of this stuff happened?

55 posted on 06/20/2017 6:15:03 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Claud
If we are going to dismiss Ambrose and Augustine and Chrysostom for being 200-300 years later, then shouldn't I dismiss you with even more prejudice, 2000 years later?

So; your chosen religion STILL teaches what Augustine did??


 

 

As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18 (And less understood)
 
 
 

Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Augustine, sermon:

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

 

66 posted on 06/20/2017 7:06:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Claud
If we are going to dismiss Ambrose and Augustine and Chrysostom for being 200-300 years later, then shouldn't I dismiss you with even more prejudice, 2000 years later?


Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.

 

67 posted on 06/20/2017 7:07:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Claud
Of course error tried to creep in. But you assume it succeeded, and you don't have a stitch of historical evidence to back that claim up. What early Christian writer ever said the whole Church fell to error? What was the error? When did it happen? Who were the main figures?

Do try to give yourself come credibility and accurately relate what someone said.

I NEVER said the WHOLE church fell into error, but in answer to your question about historical record of error creeping into the early church, we have this from Paul.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Already, here Paul is dealing with false teaching creeping into the church.

And in Titus.

Titus 1:10-11 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.

Also in Acts 15 the Council at Jerusalem dealt with it with the Judaizers.

And Paul addresses false teaching in Galatians.

If you were to actually read the NT epistles, you would see that much of what is written in them addresses false teaching.

73 posted on 06/20/2017 10:00:32 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith..)
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