Posted on 04/29/2017 8:02:13 AM PDT by NYer
As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.
The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.
The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.
Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:
| On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ |
And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed. |
More commonly the prayer is translated:
Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:
| Latin Text Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta |
English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen. |
The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.
I think you need to read again, because there’s nothing that says “or I will leave” in any of the letters to the seven churches. The threat he makes to the churches of Ephesus and Pergamum and Sardis is that he will “come”, not “leave”. The closest he comes to saying he will leave is warning the Laodiceans that he is about to spit them out of his mouth. And as I said, there is nothing critical at all in the angel’s letter to the church at Smyrna (2:8-11); and he is also supportive of the Philadelphians. You are overgeneralizing about the entire early Church based on some criticisms of some of the local churches in Asia Minor.
Did he tell them they “failed”? No. That is your invention.
Feel free to exegete them in context.
So you believe the church Jesus built failed ?
Thus, the major them of the Bible, REPENT and turn to God. It is only by God’s grace that any are saved. Jesus does not fail, but there is much weeds in the church. So what is the church? Do you have faith in the church or in Jesus. There IS a difference.
Jesus didn’t build churches ....churches are simply location or real estate.....he built ‘the body of believers’ and they are joined together by His Spirit within them no matter where they attend for worship.
Wrong. The issue is not communication in this realm, but that of praying to created beings in Heaven, which nowhere exampled or taught, despite the Holy Spirit choosing to record approx. 200 prayers in Scripture. A
And despite prayer being a most basic and common practice.
And despite the Holy Spirit being faithful to record supplication by pagans to created beings in the spiritual realm.
And despite there always being plenty of created beings in Heaven to pray to.
And only God is shown able to hear all prayer from Heaven, whereas communication btwn created beings in Heaven and in earth required both to somehow be present in the same realm.
See Revelation 5:8 and 8:3.
Angels and elders offering up prayers before the judgments of the last days in memorial (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) is not a continuous postal service, and does not constitute praying to them, or the ability to hear all prayer from Heaven, which is unique to God.
And why are you arbitrarily choosing a 100 AD cutoff date when you're relying on writers from after that period for your manuscripts of Scripture and your information about what was going on before 100 AD?
Because all Scripture was written by that time.
No command, but again, there are requests and commands to pray for each other,
Which simply is not that of praying to created beings in Heaven, which you can only wish was in Scripture,c part from pagans doing it.
and the practice of specifically praying to departed saints is referred to in Revelation and is universal throughout the early Church.
Wrong. There are zero examples of the practice of specifically praying to departed saints in Revelation or anywhere else in Scripture. And the progressive contrasts btwn the NT church and the church of the 2 century onward testifies to its declension, and is not the standard. Wholly inspired Scripture is.
In addition to Revelation: "He is not the God the dead, but the living." "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. . ." And there is no teaching in Scripture that saints can't hear a prayer from earth.
None of this teaches praying to created beings in Heaven, or that they can hear all prayer. Just admit it does not rest upon the weight of of Scriptural substantiation, but is a later development of tradition. As with purgatory and other Catholic distinctives which are simply not manifest in the record of the NT church, and contrary to it.
And French historian Le Goff finds:
This was an innovation, as Salomon Reinach nicely observes: "Pagans prayed to the dead, Christians prayed for the dead." "It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus--around 170 s.c., a surprisingly innovative period prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews". (The Birth of Purgatory By Jacques Le Goff. pp. 45)
Jesus isn't on earth, either. Are you claiming he therefore isn't an "actual person"?
The Rosary was originally prayed using the Psalms--no "Hail Mary" involved.
That is simply not that of praying to created beings in Heaven, despite Catholics imagining it is. And as i recall, communication btwn created beings in Heaven and in earth required both to somehow be present in the same realm.
"Also, it really amuses me when a protestant is discounting something that happened AD200-300 because it’s so far removed from the time of the apostles. It’s only another 1250 years or so until the protestant churches arrived."
There is no contradiction, as the issue is conflating with the record of the NT church, Acts onward, by which we see how they understood the gospels, and in which the Catholic distinctives are not manifest but contrary to it t. Thus the Reformation was needed, yet is incomplete.
There will not be one of course. Roman Catholicism would never admit what is actually practiced by its adherents.
Jesus isn't on earth, either. Are you claiming he therefore isn't an "actual person"?
The difference being we have these words from Christ.
…13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13 NASB
You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will remain--so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. John 15:16 NASB
He is the Creator....it's ok to pray to the Creator...not the created.
The Rosary was originally prayed using the Psalms--no "Hail Mary" involved.
Which further illustrates how Roman Catholicism has corrupted praying to God only. All of the prayer in Psalm 150 is directed to God.
The current Rosary has shifted the emphasis of prayer to God to prayers to Mary.
More accurately,
1. 200-300 is about when some pagan customs progressively began to be incorporated into Catholicism.
2. No Jewish or Christian prayer to Heaven is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God.
3. No record of an Apostle or church leader before 100 AD shows them ever praying to Mary or a departed saint in Heaven.
4. No command to pray to a departed saint or angel in Heaven exists in Scripture.
5. Scripture nowhere shows or teaches that departed saints can hear prayers from earth.
6. There is no evidence in Scripture or in secular writings or art can demonstrate any Biblical believer did this before 100 AD.
You're arguing with Webster's, not me.
Angels and elders offering up prayers before the judgments of the last days in memorial (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) is not a continuous postal service, and does not constitute praying to them, or the ability to hear all prayer from Heaven, which is unique to God.<./i>
So why are they concerned in 6:9 about what's going on on earth, then?
Because all Scripture was written by that time.
And you only know this because of writers from the 2nd century and later who talked about it, so why are you implicitly citing them but then arguing they're irrelevant when they don't support your position?
Just admit it does not rest upon the weight of of Scriptural substantiation, but is a later development of tradition. As with purgatory and other Catholic distinctives which are simply not manifest in the record of the NT church, and contrary to it.
Well, Paul does command Christians to hold to the traditions he taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and he also commands obedience to church authorities, so your disregard for tradition and the teaching of the early bishops is un-Biblical. But apart from tradition, there are various references to purgatorial fire and purification in the NT, as well as references to purgatory in the books of the OT that the radical Reformers arbitrarily excluded because they incorrectly assumed the Greek manuscript tradition was less authentic than the Hebrew manuscript tradition (something not even Protestant scholars would maintain today).
For the same reason the NT church could begin long after God chose a nation to be His instrument and steward of Divine revelation. And which church began with itinerant preachers who were rejected by the historical magisterium, sitting in the seat of Moses, but which preaches and church established their Truths claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, versus the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome.
1. Excuses and false justifications come forth - eventually landing on invisible evidence - instead of an objective examination.
2. We learn how little understanding and regard exists for inspired Scripture.
We’ve been through this...
“And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:”
[Apocalypse (Revelation) 5:8]
Clearly the angels and ancients (men) in heaven have possession of our prayers. By my interpretation this scripture unquestionably shows that men in heaven pass my prayers along to God. You may disagree with my interpretation, but you cannot deny that it has a biblical reference. Since it is happening in heaven, it must have God’s approval. That means a bit more to me than whether or not it has yours.
Love,
O2
If it's not okay to ask others to pray for us, why did Paul ask his churches to pray for him?--how is this not going through created beings?
The original Rosary based on the Psalms was also Roman Catholic. The current Rosary also has Our Father's, which is praying to God. The Hail Mary's are only prayed after the Our Father's. The Psalms are divided into different groups with different themes. The current Rosary is a shorter way of praying the same themes. The Our Father's and Hail Mary's are designed to help visualize the associated Scripture readings. If you take out the Scriptures that go with the beads, you're not doing the Rosary the way the Catholic Church teaches it.
Yes we have. And each of your positions were refuted.
That Romam Catholicsm has prayer beads speaks volumes. Next we'll be told to wear a piece of cloth to avoid the hell fire.....oh wait. Roman Catholicosm has that too.
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