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To: Luircin
The Greek word porneia covers a broad range of sexual sins: prostitution, homosexuality, incest, adultery, fornication, etc. By itself one cannot know what it is referring to. Thus one must look at the context. In his response Jesus clearly states that "what God has joined let no one separate," giving an absolute prohibition to divorce against the competing justifications of the two rabbinical schools. It should be noted that in Mark and Luke there is no "exception clause."

The trouble with trying to find porneia as an exception justifying the divorce of a valid marriage is that it does not work within the context of what Jesus is saying. All of this stems from seeing porneia as a sexual sin by one of the married couple outside of the marriage. Rather, I would ask you to see the porneia of which our Lord is speaking as occurring between the couple themselves, i.e. a sexually sinful union. There were many such unions in the Greek world that the Jews would hold to be sinful, and thus invalid. This reading alone does not negate what our Lord says in the rest of the passage.

For the reality that even after divorce the married couple are bound by marriage fidelity to each other I refer you to Saint Paul:

To the married, however, I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord): A wife should not separate from her husband—and if she does separate she must either remain single or become reconciled to her husband—and a husband should not divorce his wife. (1 Cor. 7:10-11)
There is no exception here, after divorce "either remain single or become reconciled to her husband." And this, Paul says, comes from the Lord.
32 posted on 02/23/2017 6:15:02 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

Polite request to make sure to read it all before responding. I don’t believe that you are being tl;dr, but I just like to not deal with piecemeal replies, so I request that you continue with that.

As I said, I cannot get past the textual analysis. I see the context, as I told you. But once again, I simply cannot see how you reach that definition except by fiat. Not when I don’t see it used that way anywhere else.

And if Jesus was talking about invalid marriages, why would divorce even be applied, since the marriage never properly happened?

Moving on from your 1 Corinthians quote, I am looking at the verses after for a spouse whose mate has abandoned her, but I have not fully analyzed that section yet, and what is meant by bondage slash slavery. So I’ll request that we don’t go into that right now and let me do some study, please.

But please let me say this. I do not LIKE adding exceptions. I am not looking for an easy out. I hate hate hate HAAAAAATE divorce, and the wounds from what happened in my family are still raw ten years later.

Maybe remarriage is sinful. In many cases, probably is. But I simply cannot, in honest assessment, bring myself to agree completely with you, at least in regards to denial of the Sacrament in all cases.

Sorry, but I’m not going to lie to you just to make this easier on me.

...

Pause here, then I change the subject.

But. Going back to the article.

The other question being whether second marriages, whether sin or not, are still marriages. As with my earlier comment about David, or Jacob’s two marriages, a marriage that began in sin still seems to be a marriage. Jesus never called it a fake marriage or a non marriage or ordered the woman at the well to go back to her first husband.

To add another divorce to that seems to be adding sin to sin.

Or, in common parlance, two wrongs don’t make a right.

If I understand correctly, Catholics would say that it isn’t actually a marriage, but I cannot see where they slash you get that. At least not in Scripture.

If it comes from tradition, then I suppose we can drop it here since that discussion would last for months.


34 posted on 02/23/2017 7:05:49 PM PST by Luircin (Dancing in the streets! Time to DRAIN THE SWAMP!)
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To: Petrosius
... giving an absolute prohibition to divorce against the competing justifications of the two rabbinical schools.

The prohibition is in remarriage rather than divorce as I understand it, yet there is tension here:

When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;


Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter twenty four, Protestant verses one to three,

Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses seventeen to nineteen,

Matthew, Catholic chapter nineteen, Protestant verses three to twelve,

as authorized, but not authored, by King James

37 posted on 02/23/2017 8:42:50 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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