Posted on 12/20/2016 8:57:08 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o
While becoming a Christian, I was given a lot of space to figure out what needed to change in my life. No one handed me a stern list of my sins. No one suggested that I discern ways of minimizing the gap between my life and the demands of the gospel, either. Traditional Christian morality, for me, was treasure hidden in a field (with map and digging implements provided), not moral nourishment force-fed to me while I was strapped helplessly to a gurney.
In a similar vein, I know priests who vocally support maintaining the prohibition on divorced and remarried Catholics receiving communion, though they dont enforce it firmly in their own parishes. Presumably, they think shaming someone in front of parishioners who dont know their marital situation is more harmful than an unworthy communion. One can disagree with the prudence of their decision. But these supporters of traditional discipline are not the modern-day Pharisees of progressive demonology, who care only for enforcing rules.
The attitude of these priests reflects, for the most part, the historic Catholic modus operandi: on the one hand, clear and demanding moral standards, known to all (or easily discoverable by all who care to know); on the other hand, a lackadaisical approach to enforcing those standards. In other words, a preference for the Southern European approach to rules over the Anglo-Saxon model that demands law be rigorously enforced or else scrapped.
This modus operandi is delicately balanced, however. When moral standards themselves are relativized, what emerges is not a Church in which everyone simply moves on from the idea of mortal sin. Its a Church in which remaining moral standards are increasingly contradictory. When one group is excused from obedience to law, more exacting standards are required elsewhere, in an attempt to re-balance the mystic scales of justicedeflecting attention to the sins of group B to excuse the sins of group A.
Consequently, the current direction in the Church is not (as conservatives fear) toward adopting progressive sexual mores, but more in the direction of conservative Protestantismwhich, for the most part, has jettisoned or twisted biblical teaching that conflicts with those aspects of the sexual revolution that appeal to heterosexual males, while ramping up the opprobrium against everyone else. While gay evangelical teens kill themselves in despair, heterosexual adults who shame them live indistinguishably from non-Christians.
The same approach is gaining a foothold in the Catholic Church. Want heterosexual sex without its natural consequences? No need to breed like rabbits. Having an affair? Well accompany you while you discern how your new sex life accords with Gods will. Want to cohabitate? Your relationship might have the grace of a marriage anyway. But a Google news search for gay teacher fired by Catholic school returns over 13,000 results.
This double standard seems well represented at high levels in the Church. I was unenthusiastic about the 2014 Synod interim report, which spoke of welcoming the gifts and qualities of gay people, but it is revealing that the 2015 Synod junked this language while waving through an ambiguous compromise on the communion question. Some prelates who take a hard line on homosexuality are evidently willing to soft-pedal Catholic teaching on adultery.
Practically, it matters little whether this hypocrisy was officially authorized by the Synod or Amoris Laetitia. PostVatican II, faithful Catholics expended enormous energy vindicating the orthodoxy of conciliar teaching on liturgy, for example, while around them statues were smashed, altars bulldozed, and racks of clown costumes wheeled into the sacristy. It will be the spirit of the Synod that the average Catholic must live with.
To call remarriage after divorce adultery now invites the accusation of black-and-white thinking, a failure to see the world in the shades of gray lauded by Amoris Laetitias self-appointed partisans. But heres the thing about gray: Its dull.
Recall the story of Paul Verlaine. A major French Catholic poet of the fin de siècle, Verlaine abandoned his wife for a homosexual affair with the younger poet Arthur Rimbaud. After a quarrel violent enough to warrant police attention, Verlaine was imprisoned for sodomy. In prison, he underwent a dramatic conversion to Catholicism, and he spent the rest of his life oscillating between periods of fervent devotion and drunken escapades with prostitutes. He was widely celebrated as an artist, not only for his frank erotic poetry, but also for what some literary critics have called the most magnificent Christian verse in the French tongue.
Imagine, however, that Verlaine had lived not in the 1870s but in the 2070s, that he had converted into a Church stripped of black-and-white thinking about sin and grace, in which priests are schooled in the arts of discernment and accompaniment. Verlaine could then have been assisted to appreciate the positive dimensions of his relationship with Rimbaud (or of his encounters with prostitutes), relax, and let go of the rigid moral thinking that left him racked with guilt.
A twenty-first-century Verlaine would live a more respectable, bourgeois life, but he would lack the humilitythe virtueinculcated through repeatedly turning back to God. Verlaines life was squalid, but he lived it within a drama of sin and redemption that gave it direction and meaning; a life lived in blacks, whites, and bold colors, not shades of gray.
Whoever believes that my faith is insincere, Verlaine said, does not know the ecstasy of receiving within his body the very flesh of the Lord. It is for me a delight which makes my head spin: it is a physical sensation. [T]he last time I received Holy Communion, I felt myself instantly clean, washed of all my sins. Without the tug-of-war between sin and grace in the soul, this kind of experience of the Eucharist is inaccessible.
If we tried translating Verlaines spiritual writing into the language of accompaniment and integration, we would be exchanging great religious art (in contemplating which we understand something vital about the human condition) for soulless bureaucratic jargon.
The disappearance of the Verlaine-style bad Catholic from the contemporary Catholic landscape is not a sign that everyone became holy in the 1970s. It is a serious impoverishment. Those who are forgiven little, love little. Sin is ugly, but it is part of the moral economy that makes grace intelligible. Without it, the narrative of salvation history looks somewhat ridiculous, for what do we need saving from? There can be something beautiful about the life of someone who genuinely struggles with sin instead of making excuses, and beauty is indicative of truth.
The Catholic Church, Oscar Wilde famously quipped, is for saints and sinners. For respectable people, the Anglican Church will do. The Catholic Church is very much for adulterers, too (though they cannot be communicants without a firm purpose of amendment)no matter how much the new regime may wish to redefine adultery out of existence.
Aaron Taylor is a research student in theology at Oxford University.
I don't have the numbers but Evangelical Christians are far more conservative than catholics or mainstream protestant churches.
Perhaps daniel1212 could repost from his vast array of information.
Sorry,I missed this. My impression is that the “RCC”, especially during this present pontificate, is conspicuously sweet on Protestants.
Clue me in. What are you talking about?
Reference the fifth paragraph.
The RCC might want to start cleaning up its act before accusing conservative Protestants.
The first error this poor Catholic apologist resorts to is that of attacking Protestants, in which they include all non-Catholic groups calling themselves "Christian - as if they were a monolithic liberal group, ignoring the vast difference btwn them. One would thus think they would affirm the conservatives who separate from the liberals which Protestants, unlike RCs, can do, but instead they attack them for having these (necessary) divisions.
The second error is that when any distinction is made here it is actually those of the conservative class that are used as illustrating the problems with Protestants.
Of course, the intent of this is to protect the imaginary premise that if the RCC (and they know what that means despite feigned ignorance) would just stop being like those damned Protestants it would be one big happy conservative party, being unified faith and morals. And which is the third error.
For actually they need to become more like historical evangelicals, who even in the present declension are yet the class most unified major religious group in core beliefs and moral views, if not as the prima NT church, which Rome stands in even more contrast to in faith (doctrine) and moral (practice).
The fourth error is that the RC apologist actually essentially blames the problem on RC ecclesiology, in stating "on the one hand, clear and demanding moral standards, known to all (or easily discoverable by all who care to know); on the other hand, a lackadaisical approach to enforcing those standards."
Thus he sees that problem as being with leadership not enforcing moral standards, yet this is because in Roman Catholicism, rather than looking to unchanging Scripture as the supreme law, the one basic duty of the multitude is to simply follow the pastors as docile sheep, and it is they who in the contemporary context provide the interpretation for the flock as to what RC teaching means. And thus since the pastors overall treat even proabortion, prosodimite public figure as members in life and in death, then so much the rest, in addition to any divorcees, and providing such a liberal criteria for annulment can leave the RC as wondering if such were ever even married (or if he or she is).
Finally, he cites "while gay evangelical teens kill themselves in despair" yet i am quite sure more homosexual Catholics tragically end up doing so (mainly lesbians), consistent with the overall character of Catholics versus evangelicals, as per the stats you were looking for, by the grace of God.
As if you were ignorant of this. I think you know better.
The first error this poor Catholic apologist resorts to is that of attacking Protestants, which RCs typically include all non-Catholic groups calling themselves "Christian" as - as if they were a monolithic liberal group, ignoring the vast difference btwn them. (And one would thus think they would affirm the conservatives who separate from the liberals which Protestants, unlike RCs, can do, but instead they attack them for having
these necessary divisions.)
The second error is that when any distinction is made here it is actually those of the conservative class
that are used as illustrating the problems with Protestants.
Of course, the intent of this is to protect the imaginary premise that if the RCs would just stop being like those damned Protestants it would be one big happy conservative party, being unified faith and morals. And which is the third error.
For actually they need to become more like historical evangelicals, who even in the present declension are yet the class most unified major religious group in core beliefs and moral views, if not as the prima NT church, which Rome stands in even more contrast to in faith (doctrine) and moral (practice).
The fourth error is that while the RC apologist blames the problem on a failure of Catholic leadership, in stating "on the one hand, clear and demanding moral standards, known to all (or easily discoverable by all
who care to know); on the other hand, a lackadaisical approach to enforcing those standards." this is actually essentially a problem with RC ecclesiology,
He sees that problem as being with leadership not enforcing moral standards, yet this is because in Roman Catholicism, rather than looking to unchanging Scripture as the supreme law, the one basic duty of the multitude is to simply follow the pastors as docile sheep, and it is they who in the contemporary context provide the interpretation for the flock as to what RC teaching means.
And thus since the pastors overall treat even proabortion, prosodimite public figure as members in life and in death, then so must the rest, in addition to any divorcees, and providing such a liberal criteria for
annulments can leave the RC as wondering if such were ever even married (or if he or she is).
Finally, while he cites "while gay evangelical teens kill themselves in despair" yet i am quite sure more homosexual Catholics tragically end up doing so (mainly lesbians), consistent with the overall character of Catholics versus evangelicals, as per the stats you were looking for, by the grace of God.
'Tis a shame for both groups; as they EACH have access to...
But there IS hope!!!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...
Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Leviticus niv
18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
But there IS hope!!!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...
Personal sniping does tend to inhibit and sour the dialogue. It's a loss to us all.
It may because you’ve played the ‘ignorance’ card way too many times.
If this is "Catholic apologetics" it's an eccentric kind indeed since the main thrust of the article is to criticize Catholic culture and practice.
This reference ("While gay evangelical teens kill themselves in despair, heterosexual adults who shame them live indistinguishably from non-Christians") is rather a head-scratcher, since he's claiming that "conservative" "Protestants" have this as a salient fault, whereas that's a big ??? in my mind. What does he mean?
If he means the corrupt acceptance of contracepted sexual intercourse and divorce/remarriage, he should say that. (It's certainly true in the Catholic world.) If he means something else, or in addition (semi-porn "Christian marriage" manuals? the soft-sell-sex of Protestant televangelists?) he should say that, too. But I don't think this is rightly called conservative Protestantism.
So what he's getting at here, I don't know.
It's also --- as I read it --- tangential to his theme. His theme is a critique of recent trends in the world.
The article stands well without paragraph 5, which is not central to his point, and which I admit I hardly noticed the first time I read it.
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Its all on Heavens hard drive.
If this is "Catholic apologetics" it's an eccentric kind indeed since the main thrust of the article is to criticize Catholic culture and practice.
Apologetics basically means giving an answer, an explanation, which Aaron is doing, seeking to explain the why and who of Cath moral decline.
So what he's getting at here, I don't know. It's also --- as I read it --- tangential to his theme. His theme is a critique of recent trends in the world. The article stands well without paragraph 5, which is not central to his point, and which I admit I hardly noticed the first time I read it.
Now that is a commendable honest critique, but while i can understand your bewilderment at why Aaron would choose to use evangelicals as illustrative of moral decline, the explanation for us is an easy one. That while not going as far as a Jack Chic would go in indicting the enemy, traditional Catholics see evangelicals as their greatest threat from within the umbrella of Christendom, and thus it is hard for them not to get in a "dig" at them when faced with the declension of their own church. For it is not conservative morals that is the priority but the preeminence of Rome, and they lose the most souls to them.
My own experience here in Upper East Tennessee,and in the pro-life movement around the USA for 40 years, is that Evangelicals are "our" greatest allies.
The author needs to get out more.
The only religious gay teen who I know of who killed himself (a friend of one of my kids) was a Catholic gay teen.
It’s good to know that the article confused you as much as it did me!
I was thinking the same thing. Thanks. Merry Christmas.
I will be charitable and attribute this response to ignorance, but it is honestly very hard to believe that you do not know what was meant by "RC" or why we use it after almost 17 years on this forum.
And which is akin to a "Goodness knows what you mean" recent response by you, only to later admit you did.
I doubt it.
My own experience here in Upper East Tennessee,and in the pro-life movement around the USA for 40 years, is that Evangelicals are "our" greatest allies.
Ah, the ""Bible belt." Up here in the NE they are far more rare.
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