Posted on 04/27/2016 8:41:02 AM PDT by Salvation
As you have indicated that you do not accept all of the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church, I accept His teachings.
Just as Judas was replaced by another apostle, Matthias.
“Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.” Acts1
The Church continued through the successors to the Apostles who were ordained and continued the mission of Jesus to Preach and Baptize all nations.
During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God’s forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God. (CCC 1443)
In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins, the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head. (CCC 1444)
The words bind and loose mean: Whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God. (CCC 1445)
The word venerate is not used in the text. Worship is.
If you follow the reference verses to where this word is used you see it is primarily directed to God. Acts 19:27 of course to a false goddess.
The point being...you're either worshiping God or you are worshiping someone/something else.
There is no separate class of "veneration".
that’s good work on the Greek....however, the Greek is nothing to the catholic.
I don’t know whether there I’d any Greek word which exactly maps onto the English word “veneration “. My guess is it would be “dulia”.
Even if there is no word in Greek which exactly corresponds to “veneration”, the customs and concept of veneration are richly illustrated esp in the OT. There are dozens of examples, for instance of people bowing genuflecting and/or prostrating in veneration, not adoration.
Abigail prostrating to King David: veneration or adoration?
Truth is nothing to the catholics we’ve encountered here on FR. I’m not through with ADSUM ...
Submission, but we understand why you would ignore that and try to twist the meanings.
BTW, you will find the same submission with Ruth (a Moabitess) to Boaz.
Wrong question. Here are the questions:
Did Abigail offer any sacrifice to David?
Did she pray to David for her salvation? And please, let's not play the "Pray tell me..." game.
Did she make an idol of David and pray to it?
You might want to check out the cause of Solomon's fall. 1 Kings 11:4-8.
You continue to try to equate the examples you post with what Catholics do with Mary and the two aren't even close.
No where do we have the OT people such as Abigail relying upon another created being for their salvation as catholics do Mary nor praying to that created being...unless it's a false god such as Baal.
But let's stay with the NT for now as that's the New Covenant.
And again in the NT we have NO example of people praying to a created being nor relying upon said created being for their salvation other than the false gods/goddesses.
So you only go the churchhouse to "venerate" (proskuneo = bow or kneel in hmage to) her -- that is, her image there?
Even regarding (an) angel(s), even in a waking vision, the Beloved John was commanded NOT to do this kind of "voluntary humility" (Col. 2:18-19) which is exactly what you try to make out veneration to be:
"And I fell at his feet to worship* him. And he said unto me, See thou do it* not: I am thy fellowservant~, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship* God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10 AV; * = proskuneo, ~ = co-slave).
Mary, though worthy of honor, is still a co-slave with us of Jesus, whom she gave birth to, but of whose actual sinful desoxyribonucleic acid He is not.
Here's what happens: Despite all the fine weasel words you sling about regarding "veneration," and regardless of how careful the catechumen is instructed, he/she is going to be overwhelmed by the supererogatory necessity of emphasizing the value of the special consideration accorded the person and role of Mary, both then and now, supposed halo and all.
That spiritually waterboarded novitiate is, lifelong, going to overcompensate the "veneration" that you teach, will never want to be found at all short in that area od humility, and is going to overcompensate by falling into the worship mode, never able to determine where the fine line between "venerate" and "bow or kneel in homage" exists (if at all, and who is to say?), always performing execrable idolatry, which is just beyond respectful regard.
To me, all your scripturally-unsupported rationale is just a wagon-load of what my grandfather farmer spread the fields with. And that is why in English, the word worship is the definition of only two words, one in Hebrew and one in Greek, of W-O-R-S-H-I-P; and to which in either your DRB or my KJV never is assigned the alphabetic value of v-e-n-e-r-a-t-i-o-n.
Let's be done with this impractical catechistic hocus-pocus word-bandying, eh? And get down to whether Catholics have been following the determined will, the thelema (θέλημα) of The Father and His Son (Heb. 10:9-10) in its historical development.
??
We only go to the church house to venerate (duleo) Mary? No. I don’t understand what you mean by this.
You are wrong in your presumption.
You are assuming that anything that is not prohibited in the Bible, is permitted.
Thus; Rome has come up with all kinds of things to occupy your time.
You Catholics will state; when pressed; that NONE of this Mary stuff is essential; yet you guys waste your time doing it.
Sorry; but your Book SHOWS that she had NO plan.
She merely acquiesced to the PLAN that GOD had for her.
And I will show you stuff; from your OWN book; that says to AVOID appearances of evil; yet you dismiss them with a wave of the Imperial Hand.
A lot of my old friends are dead.
So is Mary.
Go ahead, read your Book.
And what will be the subject of your prayer: that Elsie would buy in to all the things Rome is selling?
You can see why distinctions are important
Yup...
 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, ' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.' |
There you go again.
Using Rome's definition of 'body' when you KNOW that you eat it at church!
There you go again.
Using Rome's definition of 'body' that means ONLY Catholics; and their chosen Religious Organization.
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