If people say they do not adore Entity X, they don't.

Bernadine: …all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.

Bonaventure: …the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.

Ephem: …devotion to the divine Mother…is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.

Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.

Ambrose: …constantly pray ‘Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.

Fulgetius: …by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven.

Athanasius: …And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.

Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.

Guerric: …he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there…and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.

Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.

Antoninus: …souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.

The problem here is that symbolic actions are dependent directly on two things: intent and reception.

If a Catholic or Orthodox priest wafts incense on you (and everybody else in the congregation), he does not intend to say "I adore you as a deity," nor does anyone in the congregation interpret that as adoration.

Nevertheless, if somebody said, "I order you to offer this incense to Great Diana of the Ephesians," I would be obliged to refuse because it would be interpreted as divine worship of Diana.

Similarly a suitor may go down on one knee to ask for the fair maiden's hand in marriage without intending to make here a goddess or himself an idolator; but if someone wants me to bend the knee to oh, I don't know, Sun Yung Moon, the answer is "No."

The meaning of a symbolic action is in intent and in reception (context.)

Otherwise you'd have to say that Judas "objectively" loved Jesus, because he kissed him. Or that Abigail "objectively" idolized David as a god, because she prostrated before him. Or that the Jews "objectively" worshiped the Ark because they burnt incense before it, anointed it with oil, and danced before it in a festal procession.

Of course a person might lie -- might, for instance apostasize under pressure in order to save their life, denying what they really believe and feigning what they don't.

However that's a separate question.

The main point we're discussing here is whether a person who sincerely rejects the adoration of anyone other than the One True God, is committing idolatry by offering secondary signs of reverence to secondary objects, such as a Holy Bible, a Holy Altar, a Holy Ark, a Holy Saint.

The answer is "No." Secondary signs of honor or veneration are not acts of idolatry,

To insist that they are, is a kind of spiritual usurpation and aggression: fraudulently claiming that your poor grasp of somebody else's symbolic expressions, has to stand as the authoritative interpretation.

Context, Elsie, context.

"What context?" you might ask. The context of (1) Israel (Daughter Zion) and (2) the Mystical Body of Christ. These are the ways CHrist associates humans in the epic ework of salvation, and they come to a climax in Mary, who is THE transitional figure for the coming of the God-Man.

None of the quotes you gave are Magisterial statements, i.e. defined doctrines, nor are they statements of adoration of Mary. Most of them are, I would say, reflections on how JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD mediates salvation to us through his HUMANITY, and Mary is the personal and natural source of His humanity, as well as being, creature and handmaid, a personification of Daughter Zion, of Lady Ecclesia (the Church, cf the final verses of Revelation 12) and a very necessary member of the Body of Christ.

Is Salvation from Mary? Only in the same sense that Jesus can say, "Salvation is from the Jews." She is the mortal, proximate source of both His human nature and of His Jewishness.

Or else, what's the point of the Genealogies? Are they pointless? No, they are the record of Messiah's legal and genetic human lineage, Jesus from Whom comes our salvation.

The problem here is that symbolic actions are dependent directly on two things: intent and reception. If a Catholic or Orthodox priest wafts incense on you (and everybody else in the congregation), he does not intend to say "I adore you as a deity," nor does anyone in the congregation interpret that as adoration. Nevertheless, if somebody said, "I order you to offer this incense to Great Diana of the Ephesians," I would be obliged to refuse because it would be interpreted as divine worship of Diana. Similarly a suitor may go down on one knee to ask for the fair maiden's hand in marriage without intending to make here a goddess or himself an idolator; but if someone wants me to bend the knee to oh, I don't know, Sun Yung Moon, the answer is "No." The meaning of a symbolic action is in intent and in reception (context.) Otherwise you'd have to say that Judas "objectively" loved Jesus, because he kissed him. Or that Abigail "objectively" idolized David as a god, because she prostrated before him. Or that the Jews "objectively" worshiped the Ark because they burnt incense before it, anointed it with oil, and danced before it in a festal procession.

Why do you do this? Why do you simply use examples of activity which can be given toward man, while my statements and examples referred to ascriptions and activities which are never given by believers to any created being but God, and otherwise only belong in the realm of pagans?

Why not just admit that God is the only being ever addressed in prayer to Heaven by believers, and the only one said or shown to be able to hear/understand all such from Heaven and respond, and the only being in the supernatural realm bowed/knelled down to with in praise and adulation, who cannot be praised to excess, whose radiant eminence transcends that of all creatures, surpassing in power and virtue all the angels and saints in Heaven, and who is the only Heavenly intercessor btwn God and man;

And that only Catholics and (other) false religions engage and ascribe such to created beings?

And then (enough with the charade) why not just admit that Scriptural substantiation is not the basis for the veracity of RC beliefs, and of the assurance of such for faithful RCs, as instead the veracity of Marian hyperveneration rests upon the premise of her ensured veracity, and thus Scripture must be made to support her, or at least made to deny any contradiction. That honestly would actually be a better alternative than RCs attempting to employ the Scriptures in condescension to evangelicals, as if RCs ascertained the veracity of RC traditions by examination of Scripture, as in so doing they abuse Scripture to their own hurt, and which becomes an argument against being a RC. Or can you show anyone but pagans kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them?

Perhaps an argument from silence is next, that unless such is forbidden then it can be made doctrine?

"There is on e mediator between GOD and man...

AMEN!

You are ignoring a whole lot when you say that “God is the only being ever addressed in prayer to heaven by believers.” You are ignoring the whole Communion of Saints, and the constant and effective intercessory activity of every member of the Body of Christ.

If I can say this without offense -— and I would not willingly offend you -— you remind of the Worm Guy character at the beginning of Godzilla, who’s squinting down at the ground unable to find Godzilla’s footprints because he’s standing right in the middle of one.

I think we (and by “we” I mean all Christians) have scarcely made a start in understanding the Mystical Body of Christ wherein we are all effective members. Interlocking, interceding, incessantly praying and ever-loving members, in constant vital union with each other and with Christ our Head.

The more you think of this, the more our relationship with those in heaven -— not just Christ as if he were an isolate, but with Christ and all His saints -— makes beautiful, beautiful sense.

None of the quotes you gave are Magisterial statements, i.e. defined doctrines,

Are you suggesting that all Magisterial statements are without error, and only these are to be obeyed, and not all encyclicals and social teaching and public papal teaching, so that RCs must interpret their interpreter and determine what teaching requires assent. And that what Catholics can obediently believe only consists of defined doctrines?

Is Salvation from Mary? Only in the same sense that Jesus can say, "Salvation is from the Jews." She is the mortal, proximate source of both His human nature and of His Jewishness.

Which simply illustrates the contrast. For the Spirit is careful to add when affirming of Israel what is historically manifest,

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 9:4-5)

But nowhere does this or ANY privileged instrumentality result in anything even close to the level and manner of veneration and adulation with its ascriptions given to the Mary of Catholicism, the like of which in its totality only God is the recipient of.

Mary is the personal and natural source of His humanity

As Israel is corporately, and Mary received her humanity from others, and ultimately God/Christ is the source of such. But while the Spirit in Scripture is careful to remind us of this distinction, and is very reticent and measured in giving appellation and praise of His instruments (for which we can claim no actual merit for being) including Mary of whom He see fits to say relative little, and very moderate veneration, while give effluent praise to His word and constant exaltation and glory to God, yet Catholicism engages in such praise and hyper exaltation of Mary, with her over 900 titles, that it is far far far beyond any praise and veneration and adulation given to any created being. And in popular uncensored devotion, seems to go beyond that of Christ, and saying such things as Christ owed His blood to her!

Regardless of how this, as well as mother of God, may be justified in a qualified sense, such emphasis and praise of human instruments, however virtuous (which is all by grace) is contrary to Scripture, and its description and honor given to man versus His all-worthy Creator. What Ratzinger said as regards the formal title “Co-redemptrix” applies here, though Ratzinger only goes this far, and also includes so-called church "fathers:"

when asked in an interview in 2000 whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, then-Cardinal Ratzinger responded that “the response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings”

“Everything comes from Him [Christ], as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way. “For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (God and the world: believing and living in our time, by Pope Benedict XVI, Peter Seewald, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000, p. 306

I’m glad you included that excellent quote from Pope Benedict, which shows his great fidelity to the Hermeneutic of Continuity in doctrine. What do you think about what he said?

You are ignoring a whole lot when you say that “God is the only being ever addressed in prayer to heaven by believers.” You are ignoring the whole Communion of Saints, and the constant and effective intercessory activity of every member of the Body of Christ.

Which is another example of specious reasoning, as faced with the FACT that “God is the only being ever addressed in prayer to heaven by believers” you resort to extrapolating what you need out of intercessory prayer in the earthly realm, but which is utterly without support in example or teaching on who is addressed in prayer to Heaven. And in-credibly presumes that the Holy Spirit of God, the Spirit of Truth, would fail to provide even one example of even one believer praying to a created being in Heaven while providing approx. 200 prayers in Scripture, and despite it being a most basic fundamental practice!

And that from what I recall any communication btwn created beings from their respective realms was personal, not corporate, and required both to somehow be visibly in the same realm, versus multitudes on earth praying to unseen beings in Heaven who can hear and respond to their mental prayers. And that it took the angel Michael 21 days to come from Heaven after Daniel prayed to God also testifies to the supernatural separation btwn the two realms, with only God being said or shown able hear in Heaven the prayers from earth. But even if angels and elder can hear them, it remains that only God is addressed, and that is part of His Divine privildge, testifying to His place and power.

I think we (and by “we” I mean all Christians) have scarcely made a start in understanding the Mystical Body of Christ

Here you go again, resorting to egregious extrapolation as if what God could do justifies saying He does, contrary to what is revealed, and despite prayer being a subject of abundant revelation. Give it up, as it only makes Caths look desperate and worse.

I’m glad you included that excellent quote from Pope Benedict, which shows his great fidelity to the Hermeneutic of Continuity in doctrine. What do you think about what he said?

I told you what i thought, as in principal it applies to such formal titles as Mother of God (though he dare not go that far, and wrongly places weight on so-called early church fathers for such a basic issue), for RCs even much prefer MoG to the more sober "God-bearer," due to their insistent exaltation of her just short of being deity, and typically do so in an unqualified manner, versus the Spirit in Rm. 9:5. And is part of of them unScripturally emphasizing and exalting an instrument of grace, of whom the Spirit says and described little of. Caths can only wish the Spirit expounded on her labor of love as He did for Paul.

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."
as Christ was sinless, so Mary was;
as the Lord remained a virgin, so Mary;
as Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);
as the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);
as Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);
as Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also;
as Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.
as the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;
as Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”
as Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”
as the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is enthroned (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;
as Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;
as Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to do so;
as all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace;
as Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;”
as no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;
and as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!

Mrs. Don-o: Whhat doe you think “venerate” means?

What "venerate" means, in the English dictionary, and in the Bible(s) is as follows:

Definitions from Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged (1981)

[In the contexts below, a bracket of left (<) and right (>) carets set off a phrase illustrating an instance
of the word's particular usage.]

************

ven er able adj [ME, fr L. venerabilis, fr L venerari to venerate + abilis -able]
1 : deserving to be venerated : worthy of honor and respect usu. by reason of
prolonged testing (as o character or in office) < a venerable judge > -- deacon of a church
of the Anglican Communion or a person recognized by Roman Catholics as having attained the
lowest of three degrees of sanctity
2 : made sacred by religious, historic, or other associations : meriting to be regarded with
awe and treated with reverence < the venerable walls of a church > < venerable relics of our
forefathers > < the venerable silence of the library --Ernst Krenck >
3 a : calling forth respect through age, character, and attainments < venerable sages > < a venerable leader >; broadly : conveying an impression of aged goodness and
benevolence < his ruddy features and snow-white hair gave him a venerable appearance >
b : impressive by reason of age < that venerable coat had sheltered
three generations >
4 : obs : showing or giving deep respect : REVERENTIAL
syn see OLD

*************

ven er ate vt [L. veneratus past participle of venrerari : to regard wih reverential respect or with admiration and deference as being hallowed
or as having nobility esp if accompanied with age : REVERE < we venerate noble parents >
< do not know of a man more to be venerated for uprighteousness of heart and loftiness of
spirit -- Sir Walter Scott >
syn see REVERE

**************

ven er a tion n [ME veneracion fr L veneration-, veneratio, fr veneratus (past participle of venerari) + -ion- -io -ion]
1 : a feeling of respect mingled with awe excited by the dignity, wisdom, or superiority of a
person, by sacredness of character, by consecrated state,, or by hallowed association < the
tremendous veneration in which art and artists have been held --Huntington Hartford >
< regarded their teachers and institutions with the deepest veneration >
2 a : the act of venerating esp by the expressing of deeply reverent feeling -- compare ADORATION
b : the act of admiring humbly and respectfully
3 : the condition of one that is venerated < hoping to obtain veneration from his subjects >
4 : the phrenologic faculty of reverence - venerational (adj)

************

ven er a tor n [L fr veneratus (past participle) + -or]
: one that venerates < a venerator of tradition >

*********note********

Exodus 39:29 (39:30 in the AV and LXX)

DRB : the plate of sacred veneration of the purest gold

AV : the plate of the holy crown of pure gold

Vulgate : lamminam sacrae venerationis de auro purissimo

Darby : the thin plate, the holy diadem, of pure gold

The LXX calls it an aphorism (no Strong's number/word),

αφορισμα

Looking this up in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, one can only conclude that this noun comes from the verb αφοραω which has the meaning to turn the eyes away from other things and fix them on something; cf. αποβλεπω (to look away from); figuratively, to turn one's mind to

*******

in English:

1 : a concise statement of a principle

2 : a terse formulation of a truth or sentiment : adage

Hebrew:
Strong's Number H6731
צץ ציץ
tsı̂yts tsits
tseets, tseets
From H6692; properly glistening, that is, a burnished plate; also a flower
(as bright colored); a wing (as gleaming in the air): - blossom, flower, plate, wing.

Brown, Driver, Briggs Definition:
1) flower, bloom
. . 1a) flower, bloom
. . 1b) shining thing (of gold plate on high priest’s mitre) (metaphorically)
2) feather, wing
. . 2a) meaning dubious
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6692

========

The only place the word veneration appears in the above Bibles is in the DRB, from the Vulgate, and it does not refer to speak of an attitude of regard toward a human or to a thing of this world. In no case does it ever, in English or in Scriptural matters, refer to burning a candle or incense, or of bowing, kneeling, or prostrating oneself in homage regarding any human being or natural or manufactured object or image.

The designation "veneration" by Romanism to conduct such exercises toward idolatrous images is a term misusing an action carried to the extreme so as to avoid using the only proper term describing such action, which would be to worship, IMHO.

According to the dictionary, Mary is of the lowest of three degrees of sancity, whatever that means in Roman terms.

What blasphemy, though actual works should be referenced. Compiled:

The grace of salvation can ONLY come through the are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven; the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS; unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem; the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom; of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills; our salvation depends on thee; serve, honor Mary , and certainly you will find eternal life; on which she casts her eyes, are necessarily justified and saved.and those who do not serve Mary will not be saved.

But what does it mean, to worship, eh?

Heres what we find in the English andin the Bible languages that express "worship":

============

Definitions from Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged (1981)

[In the contexts below, a bracket of left (<) and right (>) carets set off a phrase illustrating an instance
of the word's particular usage.]

************

wor ship n [ME worschipe, worshipe, fr OE weorthscipe, fr weorth worthy + -scipe -ship -- more at WORTH]
1 a archaic : HONOR, REPUTE, CREDIT b archaic : DIGNITY, IMPORTANCE, RANK c sometimes esp chiefly British : a person of standing or importance -- used as a title or mode of address, esp for holders of high offices < his Worship the Sheriff >
2 : the reverence or veneration tendered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an
act, process, or instance of expressing such veneration by performing or takig part in religious exercises or ritual < all worship is an effort of the individual to realize . . . the real presence of the Divine --N. W. Comfort >
3 : a form or type of worship or religious practice with its creed and ritual < foreigners had been crowding to Rome, bringing with them their foreign cults, and she had prmitted these worships --John Buchan >
4 : respect, admiration, or devotionfoe an object of esteem < the worship of the machine --C. I. Glicksberg >

**********

wor ship vb worshiped or worshipped; worshiped or worshipped; worshiping or worshipping; worships [ME worschipen, worshipen, fr worschipe worship] vt
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power : VENERATE < the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are uncreated and are to be worshipped together as one God --K. S. Latourette > < the emperor . . . worshipped as a god, is to serve as an instrument --Vera M. Dean >
2 : to regard with respect, honor, or devotion : ADORE < in the Renaissance, men worshiped antiquity --Stephen Spender >

************

Hebrew:

Strong's Number H7812
שׁחה
shâchâh
shaw-khaw'
Strong's Definition:
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage
to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance,
do reverence, make to stoop, worship.
Brown, Driver, Briggs Definition:
1) to bow down
. . 1a) (Qal) to bow down
. . 1b) (Hiphil) to depress (figuratively)
. . 1c) (Hithpael)
. . . . 1c1) to bow down, prostrate oneself
. . . . . . 1c1a) before superior in homage
. . . . . . 1c1b) before God in worship
. . . . . . 1c1c) before false gods
. . . . . . 1c1d) before angel
Part of Speech: verb

=========

Aramaic (only eight instances, all in Daniel 3):
Strong's Number H5457
סגד
segid
seg-eed'
Strong's Definition:
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5456: - worship.
Brown, Driver, Briggs Definition:
1) to prostrate oneself, do homage, worship
. . 1a) (Peal) to do homage
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

=========

Greek:

Strong's Number G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
Strong's Definition:
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog
licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate
oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship. Thayer Definition:

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
. . 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
. . . . 3a1) to the Jewish high priests
. . . . 3a2) to God
. . . . 3a3) to Christ
. . . . 3a4) to heavenly beings
. . . . 3a5) to demons
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4314 and a probable derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand)

Used 60 times, in 54 verses in the NT -----------

Strong's Number G4576
σέβομαι
sebomai
seb'-om-ahee
Strong's Definition:
Middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to revere, that is, adore: - devout, religious, worship. Thayer Definition:
1) to revere, to worship
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice of an apparently primary verb

Used one occasion, recorded in two gospels:

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips;
but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men" (Mt. 15:8-9; cf Mk. 7:7 AV).

------------

Strong's Number G1391
δόξα
doxa
dox'-ah
Strong's Definition:
From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively,
objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.
Thayer Definition:
1) opinion, judgment, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
. . 2a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
3) splendour, brightness
. . 3a) of the moon, sun, stars
. . 3b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
. . 3c) majesty
. . . . 3c1) a thing belonging to God
. . . . 3c1) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the
absolute perfection of the deity
. . . . 3c2) a thing belonging to Christ
. . . . . . 3c2a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah
. . . . . . 3c2b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty
. . . . 3c3) of the angels
. . . . . . 3c3a) as apparent in their exterior brightness
4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state
. . 4a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
. . 4b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall
enter after their Saviour’s return from heaven
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G1380

Used only once, referring to table manners, not veneration, adoratiom, or bowing in homage.

----------------

Strong's Number G3000
λατρεύω
latreuō
lat-ryoo'-o
Strong's Definition:
From λάτρις latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), that is, render religious homage: - serve, do the service, worship (-per).
Thayer Definition:
1) to serve for hire
2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
. . 2a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship
. . 2b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
. . . . 2b1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from latris (a hired menial)

Used only twice:

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:14 AV).

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Php. 3:3 AV).

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The only words in wither the Old Testamen or the New, which could be usedfor the act of lighting candles, or burning incense, and/or bowing/kneeling/prostrating in homage to Mary is defined in the English language solely as to worship, is it not?

Trying to excuse this attitude toward her (or worse yet, images purporting to be of her) by using the word "venerate" or "veneration" is only trying to walk away, in thje face of direct challenges, that what is relly going on is worship the is not authorized anywher in the Old or New Testaments, and is in fact forbidden, in my estimation.

So; are you agreeing that Mary has NOTHING to do with mediating between humans and GOD?

If I can say this without offense -— and I would not willingly offend you -— you remind of the Worm Guy character at the beginning of Godzilla, who’s squinting down at the ground unable to find Godzilla’s footprints because he’s standing right in the middle of one.

Yup.

Just like the folks who have the bible that Rome gave us; and STILL look outside of it for direction.

A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way.

“For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language”

God and the world: believing and living in our time, by Pope Benedict XVI, Peter Seewald, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000, p. 306

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,

' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

What do you think about what he said?

I think you are standing in the middle of an impression of a LOT of quotes; refusing to see the total of what they represent.

What blasphemy, though actual works should be referenced. Compiled:

Let's see what I can do today...