Perpetual virginity

OSV.com ^ | 03-09-16 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Salvation]

Perpetual virginity

3/9/2016

Question: I am a lifelong and devout Catholic and have always considered Mary to be ever virgin. But recently, I read in my Bible that Joseph had no relations with Mary “before” she bore a son (Mt 1:25). Now, I wonder if our belief does not contradict the Bible.— Eugene DeClue, Festus, Missouri

Answer: The Greek word “heos,” which your citation renders “before,” is more accurately translated “until,” which can be ambiguous without a wider context of time. It is true, in English, the usual sense of “until” is that I am doing or not doing something now “until” something changes, and then I start doing or not doing it. However, this is not always the case, even in Scripture.

If I say to you, “God bless you until we meet again.” I do not mean that after we meet again God’s blessing will cease or turn to curses. In this case, “until” is merely being used to refer to an indefinite period of time which may or may not ever occur. Surely, I hope we meet again, but it is possible we will not, so go with God’s blessings, whatever the case.

In Scripture, too, we encounter “until” being used merely to indicate an indefinite period whose conditions may or may not be met. Thus, we read, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam 6:23). Of course, this should not be taken to mean that she started having children after she died. If I say to you in English that Christ “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), I do not mean his everlasting kingdom will actually end thereafter.

While “until” often suggests a future change of state, it does not necessarily mean that the change happens — or even can happen. Context is important. It is the same in Greek, where heos, or heos hou, require context to more fully understand what is being affirmed.

The teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary does not rise or fall on one word, rather, a body of evidence from other sources such as: Mary’s question to the angel as to how a betrothed virgin would conceive; Jesus entrusting Mary to the care of a non-blood relative at this death; and also the long witness of ancient Tradition.

[MHGinTN]

The spoken language of the times was Aramaic. There is, interestingly, no specific word for brother(s) in Aramaic. BUT in the Koine Greek ‘aldelphos’ was often used to be more specific. yet it could also be vague. That is why we sometimes read the proper name of a man to have ‘from or of and thye father’s name. In the Greek, when the Mother of Jesus is written, followed by ‘adelphos’ the meaning refers to the Mother’s children. However, that will not tell us if these are adopted sons or not. For that catholiciism relies upon the traditions of the magicsteeriingthem in order to support the notions of demigoddess status for The Mother of Jesus.

[SouthernClaire]

God has a sense of humor, I believe. This (copied) quote is taken from the Esword program (fantastic and free) I use for Bible study: Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall cursh thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. - 1899 Douay-Rheims Bible

Notice anything? Perhaps a tip from Him?

The more I learn about Catholicism, the more I want to scream, “Get out while there's still time! Run for your soul's sake!” I guess part of the delusion is in the “doing” of (dead) works. “God will owe me if ...” And not being aware that this is man's deception, working under Satan, for his (man's) own earthly benefit. God will owe no one anything but damnation. Thankfully – most humbly and thankfully, I say – He has provided the way to salvation which is free to all who will come.

In Genesis 3:15 does the deception begin. The “she” rather than “He” is believed but Genesis' creation account is tossed out the window which means Exodus 20:11 must also be trashed, along with other parts of Exodus. After that ripping of His Word, are parts of Psalms and Job and others that must be shredded. In this way, and before one knows what's happened, the Word of God is scrapped or explained away, and parts that can be manipulated into tools for the enemy are used to form some mangled, garbled, half-truth message. Wheat and tares ground together make for poisonous bread which is used as food for the spirit.

The Day is coming. I see worldly events unfolding and I wonder how others who profess themselves believers don't see what others see. But then, if one believes that God's word does not mean what He says, there's no way to understand the world other than in the worldly way. I pray for those lost in religion and particularly for those who were brought up as children in it. That's going to be tough to overcome.

But God! Glory be to Him! With Him all things are possible. I know from where He saved and brought me, and that is a miracle.

There was a time when, as a new Christian, I looked at Catholicism along with other religions. I thank God first for keeping me and then I thank Him for using posters here at Free Republic for doing His work to keep me. And that includes you. May your crown shine brightly as you lay it at His feet, MHG.

[MHGinTN]

There are a few 'built in assumptions in Catholicism, like the one where Mary knows the deepest truths regarding her first born. But as the following from Luke shows, the understanding was not so complete in Jesus's childhood:

Luke 2:41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”f 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

[MHGinTN]

I am due no regard. His Spirit has had a time of it, raising me up in the way that I should go as His newborn. It is teaching me above everything else to rely upon the Promises of God for He will never break His word and in keeping His word, working it out in us who believe, all is glorifying Jesus. He alone is worthy.

[Mark17]

Remember, only Christians will go to Heaven.

You rang?

Who am I, Lurch? 😆😃😊😀😎😄🌝

[Mark17]

Honestly, I don't know how much clearer it can be stated short of saying, *After Jesus was born, they had sex* and even then they'd argue it.

Yes, and there are probably certain people among us, who will remain unnamed, who would then argue, that even if Mary and Joseph did the "evil deed," God would be angry, if they enjoyed it.
I can just imagine Joseph asking, "Mary, are you awake?"

😆😃😇🌝😀

[Delta 21]

e-Sword is awesome. And so is the church here at Freerepublic.

[ealgeone]

John 7:5

[ealgeone]

Problem being these are not identified in the passages dealing with His immediate family. I think you know that.

[SouthernClaire]

Amen and amen, Delta 21.

(And so is your homepage. WOW!)

[ealgeone]

This was posted to TC on another subject within this thread but it pertains to the issue of if Jesus had brothers and sisters.

>>Paul calls all followers brothers and sisters.<<

True, Paul does address fellow believers as brothers but he also uses specific words from time to time.

As I've said before...context is your key to understanding the Word.

Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother. Galatians 1:18-19 NASB

The Greek would render it this way if we put it into English, "James, brother of the Lord." In the Greek of the Lord is in the genitive case. Generally, the genitive case indicates one of possession. In this particular instance it is indicating a family relationship due to the structure of the Greek.

James is being identified as the brother of the Lord.

[Syncro]

I see no contradictions to this belief in my interpretation of scripture

Therein lies the problem. Try the Holy Spirit's interpretation.

[Syncro]

What a nice uplifting post, thank you for that contribution.

And thank you also for posting that scripture from the “Catholic” Bible as I am currently in a discussion about that verse with a Catholic.

[daniel1212]

RCs as you keep on trying to promote your heretical organization with such fallacious sources that they are an argument against being an RC.

In Scripture, too, we encounter “until” being used merely to indicate an indefinite period whose conditions may or may not be met. Thus, we read, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam 6:23). Of course, this should not be taken to mean that she started having children after she died

The word used in your translation as "until" ("unto" in the KJV) means "even to" 497 times, ("That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet" - Gen_14:23) "unto" 1,253 times (the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day." - Gen_19:7) and with the context of your verse makes it obvious this is saying "even to the day of her death" since after there would be no more opportunity to produce offspring.

In contrast, if the text said And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until her year of marriage" them it would clearly convey that she had children, especially since leaving and cleaving is what describes marriage in Scripture, and if any of her in the light of the fact that the Holy Spirit characteristically mentions exceptions to the norm, even in regards to lesser subjects, from great age (Methuselah), to excess size (Goliath), strength (Samson), extraordinary height (Ogg) or toes (sons of Goliath), or holiness (Job, Noah, Daniel) chastity (Anna), diet (John the Baptist), to the supernatural transport of Phillip, the singleness of Paul and Barnabas, and uncharacteristic duplicity of Peter, and the surpassing labor and suffering of Paul, etc. and Christ being sinless, etc.

And the example of the barren womb of Michal is another testimony to that fact, and thus it is actually an argument against the perpetual virginity of Mary.

If I say to you in English that Christ “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), I do not mean his everlasting kingdom will actually end thereafter.

Which is another fallacious use of Scripture, since the subject is not even the everlasting kingdom, but that of Christ functionally reigning as Lord, which the Father made Him due to His victorious mission:

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:34-36)

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (1 Corinthians 15:24-25)

...But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

Meaning that the Divine Son of God shall deliver "up the kingdom to God, even the Father" and the latter shall once again functionally assume the Lordship that is consistent with His headship overall. And all will give glory to God, whether in salvation or in judgment, including many Catholics who insist on basically giving to Mary the following as to Christ:

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:12-14)

[daniel1212]

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Cathsshould only do (and I should do more of) what Mary and every believer in Scripture did in praying to Heaven, which was to pray directly to the Lord, not saintly secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.

Instead, Caths basically say,

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)

[ealgeone]

Why do you think Joseph and Mary did not have sex while she was pregnant?

Joseph did as the angel instructed him, took her as his wife and kept her a virgin until Jesus was born. (Matt 1:18-25)

The normal reading of the text regarding "kept her a virgin until Jesus was born" if read normally tells the reader they did not have sex until after He was born.

[daniel1212]

There is no special conferment of Mary being the "mother of the disciples" nor was Jesus giving Mary to all of us to be our "spiritual mother".

Only cults and Catholics would presume to teach as a major doctrine that which is utterly absent in the life of the NT church.

List of NT books which teach or prophesy of praying to Mary as the exalted Queen of Heaven, the holiest of all saints, with an infinite difference being between God's servant and His Mother, whose honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation, whose power is all but unlimited, whose prayers cannot be refused, and who possesses the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer's Kingdom, and whom angels and elect praise before her throne, with the Mary of Catholicism being being the glory of the church, this being papal teaching, not to mention that which is sanctioned as coming from lesser prelates and people.

>

• Matthew
• Mark
• Luke
• John
• Acts (of the Apostles)
• Romans
• 1 Corinthians
• 2 Corinthians
• Galatians
• Ephesians
• Philippians
• Colossians
• 1 Thessalonians
• 2 Thessalonians
• 1 Timothy
• 2 Timothy
• Titus
• Philemon
• Hebrews
• James
• 1 Peter
• 2 Peter
• 1 John
• 2 John
• 3 John
• Jude
• Revelation

[SouthernClaire]

You are welcome, Syncro. I pray your efforts will help him or her to see the Light.

To get to know the Light and to love the Light. I could go on, but you get my point. It’s just that I remember often the tear-stained floor (literally) from which He raised me up and I pray the same lifting (salvation) for others.

Reading so many posts here from ex-Catholics, I’m glad that I was not raised as such because I know how weak I am believing myself to be strong, how easy it is to be deceived when we just KNOW that we are in the right, and I remember what things I believed before He got hold of me. And I’m still learning. And He is still full of grace and truth and mercy and forgiveness for all who will come to Him. If we’ll but take a step, He’ll drag us the rest of the way if need be.

Perhaps by the hair of the head and maybe kicking and screaming, but He will accomplish it. AMEN.

God bless you, Syncro.

[metmom]

Yes, I think bearing and rearing the Son of God made Mary and Joseph more holy.

Holy is holy. There is not grades of holiness alluded to in Scripture.

It's a man-made teaching just like saying there are grades of sin, mortal or venial.

Sin is sin and all sin condemns to death.

And again, there is no sin in marital sex, but neither is there sin in remaining celibate out of reverence for the fact that Mary’s womb had held the Son of God.

IOW, sex is degrading and sinful. It sends the clear and implicit message that somehow, sex is wrong, unworthy of someone who is *spiritual*, as if God or our relationship with Him is somehow defiled by engaging in something He created and blessed.

I also believe that if those water jars from Cana had been mine, they would not ever have been used again out of respect for the miracle that occurred in them. Would it have been a sin to be so wasteful? Would that be considered jar-worship?

God works a miracle in every heart in which He is born.

Should all believers stop having sex because their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in us, whom we have received from God. We are therefore commanded to honor God with our bodies.

Does that mean no more sex, too?

If Mary and Joseph had had sex while Mary was pregnant, would Jesus not have been the Messiah?

An absolutely irrelevant and meaningless question along the lines of wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin designed only for contention and to stir up debate and speculation over nothing.

Hardly worth the bandwidth to even acknowledge that it was asked.

[metmom]

Paul didn’t write any of the Gospels.

Paul’s use of the words *brother* and *sister* in context of the body of Christ is not the same as the context which Jesus’ neighbors used the term.