Mary, Mother of God

The Sacred Page ^ | December 29, 2015

[NYer]

January 1 is the Solemnity (Holy Day) of Mary, Mother of God.  To call Mary the “Mother of God” must not be understood as a claim for Mary’s motherhood of divinity itself, but in the sense that Mary was mother of Jesus, who is truly God.  The Council of Ephesus in 431—long before the schisms with the Eastern churches and the Protestants—proclaimed “Mother of God” a theologically correct title for Mary. 

So far from being a cause of division, the common confession of Mary as “Mother of God” should unite all Christians, and distinguish Christian orthodoxy from various confusions of it, such as Arianism (the denial that Jesus was God) or Nestorianism (in which Mary mothers only the human nature of Jesus but not his whole person).

Two themes are present in the Readings for this Solemnity: (1) the person of Mary, and (2) the name of Jesus.   Why the name of Jesus? Prior to the second Vatican Council, the octave day of Christmas was the Feast of the Holy Name, not Mary Mother of God.  The legacy of that tradition can be seen in the choice of Readings for this Solemnity.  (The Feast of the Holy Name was removed from the calendar after Vatican II; St. John Paul II restored it as an optional memorial on January 3.  This year it is not observed in the U.S., because Epiphany falls on January 3.)

1.  The First Reading is Numbers 6:22-27:

The LORD said to Moses:
“Speak to Aaron and his sons and tell them:
This is how you shall bless the Israelites.
Say to them:
The LORD bless you and keep you!
The LORD let his face shine upon
you, and be gracious to you!
The LORD look upon you kindly and
give you peace!
So shall they invoke my name upon the Israelites,
and I will bless them.”

This Solemnity is one of the very few times that the Book of Numbers is read on a Lord’s Day or Feast Day.  Here’s a little background on the Book of Numbers:

The Book of Numbers is a little less neglected than Leviticus among modern Christian readers, if only because, unlike its predecessor, it combines its long lists of laws with a number of dramatic narratives about the rebellions of Israel against God in the wilderness, which create literary interest.  The name “Numbers” is, perhaps, already off-putting for the modern reader—it derives from the Septuagint name Arithmoi, “Numbers”, referring to the two numberings or censuses, one each of the first and second generations in the Wilderness, that form the pillars of the literary structure of the book in chs. 1 and 26.  The Hebrew name is bamidbar, “In the Wilderness,” which is an accurate description of the geographical and spiritual location of Israel throughout most of the narrative.

         The Book of Numbers has a strong literary relationship with its neighbors in the Pentateuch.  In many ways it corresponds with the Book of Exodus.  Exodus begins with the people staying in Egypt (Exodus 1-13), then describes their journey to through the desert (Exodus 14-19), and ends with them stationary at Sinai (20-36).  Numbers begins with the people staying at Sinai (Num 1-10), describes their journey through the desert (Num 11-25), and ends with them stationary on the Plains of Moab.  Sinai and the Plains of Moab correspond: at each location the people will receive a covenant (see below on Deuteronomy).  Furthermore, there are strong literary connections between the journeys through the Wilderness to and from Sinai (Ex 14-19; Num 11-25).  Both these sections are dominated by accounts of the people of Israel “murmuring” (Heb. lôn), “rebelling” (Heb. mārāh), or “striving” (Heb. rîb) against the LORD and/or Moses, together with Moses’ need for additional help to rule an unruly people (Ex 18; Num 11:16-39), and God’s miraculous provision for the people’s physical needs (Ex 15:22-17:7; Num 11:31-34; 20:1-13).  This is evidence of careful literary artistry: the central Sinai Narrative (Exod 20–Num 10) is surrounded by the unruly behavior of the people wandering in the desert.

         Numbers also has a close relationship with Leviticus.  If Leviticus established a sacred “constitution” for the life of Israel, exhibiting a logical, systematic order concluded, like a good covenant document, with a listing of blessings and curses (Lev 26), Numbers is more like a list of “amendments” to the “constitution,” together with accounts of the historical circumstances that led to their enactment.  And like the lists of amendments on many state and national constitutions, the laws have an ad hoc, circumstantial character, with little logical connection between successive “amendments.” 

         Finally, Numbers “sets the stage” for the Book of Deuteronomy, providing us the necessary information about Israel’s geographical and moral condition when they arrived at the “Plains of Moab opposite Jericho” in order to appreciate Moses’ extended homily and renewal of the covenant that he will deliver at this site in the final book of the Pentateuch.

The specific text we have in this First Reading is the famous Priestly Blessing of Numbers 6.  The formula for blessing given to the priests involves the invocation of the Divine Name (YHWH) three times over the people of Israel. 

A Brief Excursus on the Divine Name

“If they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say?” “God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” say … “I AM has sent me to you” (Ex 3:13-14).  The revelation of the divine Name to Moses (Ex 3:13-15) is one of the most theologically significant passages of the Old Testament.  By revealing himself as “I AM”, God distinguishes himself from the other gods of the nations, which “are not.”  He is the only God who truly is.  Furthermore, the name “I AM” stresses that God exists of himself; unlike all other beings he does not take his existence from some other cause.  Later philosophical language will describe God as the one necessary being.  While lacking technical philosophical language, the ancients did have the concept of self-existence: in Egyptian religion, the sun-god Amon-RÄ“ “came into being by himself” and all other beings took their existence from him.  However, God reveals to Moses that it is He, the LORD—not Amon-RÄ“ or any other Egyptian god—who is the ground of being and the source of existence. 

The actual word given to Israel to serve as the Name of God is spelled YHWH in the English equivalents of the Hebrew consonants. It is not the full phrase “I AM WHO I AM” but rather an archaic form of the Hebrew verb HYH, “to be,” with the meaning “HE IS.” Out of respect for the third commandment, Jews after the Babylonian exile (c. 597–537 BC) ceased to pronounce the divine name at all, but instead substituted the title “Lord,” in Hebrew adonai, in Greek kyrios.  Thus the God of Israel is called ho kyrios, “the Lord” in the New Testament.  This sheds light on the meaning of the phrase, “Jesus is Lord!” (Rom 10:9; 1 Cor 12:3).

The Hebrew language was written without vowels until around AD 700, when Jewish scribes developed a vowel-writing system.  The form YHWH, however, was written with the vowels for adonai, the word Jews actually pronounced.  The English translators of the King James Version did not understand this system, and in a few instances combined the Hebrew consonants of YHWH (called the tetragrammaton, lit. “the four letters”) with the Hebrew vowels of adonai to form the erroneous name “Jehovah.”  Catholic tradition addresses God with neither the mistaken form “Jehovah” nor the ancient pronunciation “Yahweh,” but uses “LORD” to refer to the God of Israel, in keeping with the practice of Jesus and the Apostles.  In most English Bibles, “LORD” in caps represents YHWH in the Hebrew text, while “Lord” in lower case represents the actual Hebrew word adonai.

The concept of “name” in Hebrew culture was of great significance.  The “name” represented the essence of the person, and invoking the name made the person mystically present.  Therefore, God will speak of the manifestation of his presence in the Temple as the “dwelling of his Name” in various places of the Old Testament.

The invocation of the Name of God over the people of Israel communicates God’s presence and Spirit to them at least a mediated way. 

In post-exilic Judaism, the Divine Name (YHWH) was seldom if ever pronounced, except on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), when the High Priest would make atonement for the whole nation in the Holy of Holies, and then exit the Temple in order to bless the assembled people in the Temple courts.  There, he would pronounce the blessing of Numbers 6, including the vocalization of the Divine Name.  Every time the people would hear the Name pronounced, they would drop prostrate on the ground.  This is recorded in Sirach:

Sir. 50:20 Then Simon came down, and lifted up his hands over the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, to pronounce the blessing of the Lord with his lips, and to glory in his name, and to glory in his name;  21 and they bowed down in worship a second time, to receive the blessing from the Most High.

Similar information is recorded in the Mishnah, the second-century AD collection of rabbinic tradition and teaching that become the basis of the legal system of modern Judaism.  So in the Mishnah, tractate Yoma 3:8 and 6:2:

And [when the people heard the four letter Name] they answer after [the High Priest]: “Blessed be the Name of His glorious Kingdom forever and ever”. (M. Yoma 3:8)

Then, the priests and the people standing in the courtyard, when they heard the explicit Name from the mouth of the High Priest, would bend their knees, bow down and fall on their faces, and they would say, "Blessed be the Honored Name of His Sovereignty forever!" (M. Yoma 6:2)

We read this passage of Scripture in today’s liturgy for a variety of reasons. 

First, we gather as God’s people around the world on this, the first day of the civil year, to ask from God his blessing upon us. 

Second, we commemorate (in the Gospel) the circumcision and naming of Jesus.  For us in the New Covenant, the Name of God continues to be a source of blessing and Divine Presence, but the name we are to use is no longer YHWH but “Jesus.”  Jesus is God’s Name, the source of salvation.  When Paul speaks to the Philippians about the Name of Jesus, he may have in mind the prostrations in the Temple at the Divine Name:

Phil. 2:10  At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth …

It has never been the Christian tradition to pronounce the holy name “YHWH.”  Jesus and the Apostles practiced the Jewish piety of substituting “Lord” (‘adonai, kyrios, dominus) for the pronunciation of the Name.  For this reason, under the pontificate of Benedict XVI, the pronounced name “Yahweh” was removed from contemporary worship resources.  The sect of the Jehovah’s Witnesses insist on the pronunciation of the Name, although their form of pronunciation is erroneous, and there is nothing in Christian tradition or the New Testament to encourage such a practice.  For us, the saving name is now “Jesus,” and although full prostration at the pronunciation of the name of Jesus is impractical, Catholic piety dictates a bow of the head at the mention of the Holy Name.

2.  The Second Reading is Galatians 4:4-7:

Brothers and sisters:

When the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son,

born of a woman, born under the law,

to ransom those under the law,

so that we might receive adoption as sons.

As proof that you are sons,

God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,

crying out, “Abba, Father!”

So you are no longer a slave but a son,

and if a son then also an heir, through God.

This Reading has ties to the Gospel, which emphasizes Mary’s role in Christ’s birth (“born of a woman”) as well as Jesus and his family being obedient Jews, faithful to the Old Covenant in submitting to circumcision (“born under the law.”)

This Reading also reminds us that Jesus calls us to Divine sonship (or childhood, if gender neutrality is desired).  Let’s not forget that this is unique to the Christian faith.  Christianity—unlike Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Atheism—is a religion about becoming children of God.  In Judaism, Divine childhood is metaphorical; in Islam, it is blasphemy.  In Eastern religions, it is irrelevant, because God is not ultimately a personal being, but rather an impersonal force or essence that animates all or simply is All.  Christianity alone holds out the possibility of familial intimacy with Creator as a son or daughter to a Father.

Let us also notice the close connection between the gift of the Holy Spirit and divine sonship.  From a legal perspective, it is the New Covenant that makes us children of God; from an ontological perspective, it is the Spirit that makes us children.  The sending of the Spirit “into our hearts,” as St. Paul says, is parallel to the inbreathing of the “breath of life” into the nostrils of Adam, causing him to become “a living being.”  So we are revivified by the Holy Spirit, as Adam was brought to life at the dawn of time.  Adam was king of the universe, as it says: “Have dominion over the over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth” (Gen 1:28).  The word “dominion” (Heb radah) evokes the context of kingly rule: later it will be used of Solomon’s imperial reign (1 Kings 4:24; Ps 72:8; 110:2; 2 Chr 8:10).  So the Holy Spirit makes us royalty in Christ: as St. Paul says, “no longer a slave but a son … also an heir, through God.”  No longer a slave to what?  Sin, death, and the devil.  If we live controlled by lusts, in fear of death, and swayed by the suggestions of Satan, than we are still slaves.  If we are free of these things, then we are walking in the Spirit, as children of God.  This is a theme in the First Epistle of John, which is read during daily mass all through the Christmas season.

4.  The Gospel is Luke 2:16-21:

The shepherds went in haste to Bethlehem and found Mary and Joseph,

and the infant lying in the manger.

When they saw this,

they made known the message

that had been told them about this child.

All who heard it were amazed

by what had been told them by the shepherds.

And Mary kept all these things,

reflecting on them in her heart.

Then the shepherds returned,

glorifying and praising God

for all they had heard and seen,

just as it had been told to them.

When eight days were completed for his circumcision,

he was named Jesus, the name given him by the angel

before he was conceived in the womb.

We note several things: Mary “kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart.”  This is not only an historical indication of where St. Luke is getting his information about these events (so John Paul II [in his Wednesday audience of Jan. 28, 1987] and the Catholic tradition generally), but also a model of the contemplative vocation to which all Christians are called.  Especially during this Christmas season, up until the Baptism (Jan 13), we should carve out some time for quiet prayer, to meditate on the incredible events we celebrate and allow their meaning to sink into our hearts. 

Then we see the shepherds “glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen …”  This, too, describes the Christian’s vocation.  Pope Francis in particular has been calling us to return to the aspect of praise and joy that characterizes the disciple of Jesus.  Our faith is experiential, it is not just a philosophy.  It is an encounter with a person.  All of us should know what it means to come into contact with Jesus, to “hear and see” him.  In his First Epistle (which we are reading right now in daily mass), St. John sounds much like the shepherds:

1John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life —  2 the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us —  3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.  4 And we are writing this that our joy may be complete.

Observe the connection in this passage with “seeing” and “hearing” and the culmination in proclamation and joy.  This is what disciples of Jesus do: they experience Jesus and then proclaim in joy what they have encountered.

Finally, we see the naming of Jesus at his circumcision.  Christians no longer practice circumcision, because Baptism is the “circumcision of the heart” promised by Moses that surpasses physical circumcision (cf. Deut 10:16; 30:6; Acts 2:37; Col 2:11-12).  Yet at our Baptism, the “circumcision of our heart,” we still receive our Christian name.

The name given to Jesus is the Hebrew word y’shua, meaning “salvation.”  In the Old Testament, we are more familiar with the name under the form “Joshua,” who was an important type of Christ.  Just as Moses was unable to lead the people of Israel into the promised land, but Joshua did; so also Jesus is our New Joshua who takes us into the salvation to which Moses and his covenant could not lead us.

Salvation is now found in the Name of Jesus, because salvation means to enter into a relationship of childhood with God the Father.  It’s not that other great religious leaders (Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius etc.) claimed to be able to lead us into divine childhood, but couldn’t. It’s that they did not even claim to be able to do so.  Jesus is unique.  So Jesus says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6).  This is not arrogance.  Jesus is the only great religious founder in human history to proclaim that God is a Father and we can become his children.  This concept of divine filiation is at the heart of the Gospel.  In a sense, it can be said to be the heart of the Gospel. 

On this Solemnity, let us give thanks to God that he has, through Jesus, made a way for us to become his children and receive a new name which he has given us (see Rev 2:17).  This intimate, personal relationship with God has been made possible by the cooperation of Mary, who became the mother of the one whose Name is Salvation. 

[metmom]

The title "mother of God" means that Mary is the mother of God the Son, the Word, the Second Person of the Trinity, because she conceived him in her womb and bore him. It has NEVER meant that Mary is the mother of God the Father and/or God the Holy Spirit.

On the contrary, that is EXACTLY what *mother of God* SAYS.

You all can deny it and claim that it means something different than what it says, but then you are denying the plain basic reading of a simple statement.

If it actually MEANS something different, then whoever chose that term did a poor job and it needs to be reworded to more accurately say what it means.

Kind of like what the HOLY SPIRIT did when HE chose to use the term *mother of Jesus*.

[boatbums]

They know that. They cannot bring themselves to admit that the Catholic teaching on this is exactly what they believe, so they keep trying to change Catholic doctrine so they can disagree with it. Contrarians all.

Perhaps the true reason for the disagreement is that many Catholics don't believe non-catholics should be able to disagree with what Catholicism declares? To coin a phrase, what difference does it make? You've said in this thread that you don't have a problem with it if people don't believe in the title "Mother of God" as long as they don't reject the central tenet of Christianity concerning the deity of Jesus Christ. Did you mean it? So it's not contrarianness at all. The reason I reject calling Mary that is simply because it is an inaccurate one, it is not taught in the Bible and it has enabled the creation of a cult of Mary which takes away from the glory due to Christ.

[Iscool]

How can that be??? The Catholics claim their ‘Church’ hasn’t changed in 2500 years...

[Iscool]

Psssst there is no difference between the soul and the spirit.

That's like saying there is no difference between ice cream cone and bicycle...

Did you look them up in the Greek like I suggested...They are different things in the English as well as the Greek...

And when you find out what they mean, you can find their references all thru the bible...

All that schooling you keep bragging about and they never taught you that things that are different, are not the same???

[Iscool]

The title "mother of God" means that Mary is the mother of God the Son, the Word, the Second Person of the Trinity, because she conceived him in her womb and bore him.

God was not conceived in the flesh...God was planted there, by the Holy Spirit...

[MHGinTN]

I didn’t say my soul has existed forever, just that my mother or my conception didn’t create it. God did. Sometime before I was ‘formed in the womb’. Aside from the fact that I did not say you claimed your spirit or soul has existed forever, it would be interesting to see on what you base the assertion that your soul was created before your conception in you mother's womb. This is topic of deep interest to me for reasons I will not even try to explain here. Suffice it to say that I believe the soul is built from the experiencing of spacetime reality, that the spirit is created by God, for each and every individual who has ever lived.

I define the soul as the behavior mechanism of the individual person, operating on patterns associated to the mammalian class of animals. This mechanism is not in the $D spacetime of our perceptions. It exists and is real in a different spacetime coordinate system, oriented to dimension time differently than the body is oriented.

Why all of these attempts to limit us to our human bodies and God to His human form? That is a direct mischaracterization, so I will merely dismiss it as unworthy of discussion.

Mothers give bodies to their children’s souls. They do not create the souls. That is a human requirement for our existence in this world. My soul will continue when my human body is gone. As touched upon previously above, the spacetime coordinate system of your body is not the same one in which your soul develops and exists. Your soul develops as an adjunct to the developing body, since it is the various mechanisms in the body which enable the collection and processing of data. You can verify this distinction with a simple thought experimentL the photons from a distant star arrive at your eyegate after crossing a vast distance, at light speed,but these photons cross the Universe always int he present of their creation, hence we may study the state of the star which created them as it was at the moment the photons were emitted. The star may even have ceased to exist just as the photons arrive at collection points such as your eye or artificial data collectors, but we may study the state of the star when the photons were emitted because those packets of space, time, and energy travel the Universe always remaining in the present of their creation. Whne your eye collects the packet, you brain as an organ being used by your soul constructs a virtual reality which you assume to be the state of things presently. If the data is collected close enough to the source, the assumption is very useful for existence (seeing a tiger far away requires photons to register the scene then your brain being used by the mind of your soul does calculations and arranges a virtual reality; a closer tiger would garner greater caution due to the collected information the mind of your soul has accumulated about tigers).

Mothers lend a gamete to the creation of the first zygote of a new individual. From then on the mother lends a place and the means, for the new individual to build a 'space capsule' and a body, in the water world, for future use in the air world. The mother makes none of the various parts of the new individual after her gamete is used to make that new zygotic individual.

Mary as mother of God simply gave Him His human form. His being is independent of that. Um, no, partly: Mary lent her womb to the gestation period of the new body in earliest stage of life that the Holy Spirit placed in her. It would be speculation only to say that any DNA of Jesus came from Mary; we simply do not have an answer for that one. The Spirit of The Son was with God and was God in the beginning. The behavior mechanism (the soul, the mind, emotions, and will of Jesus the man) came about in same fashion as yours or mine, albeit the Spirit directing that behavior, the seed of 'Godness', caused Him to deal with temptations differently than you or me because His Righteousness remained within Him all through His Life ('He could not sin because His seed remained within Him').

Jesus is familiar with grief and temptations and joy and pain like as we are. God planned to be among us as a man, albeit a man with a different power to rule His soul, His behavior mechanism.

The issue comes to this: when Did The Spirit of God enter the Soul of Jesus? The Bible, as far as I have been able to ascertain does not tell us. Some will assume The Spirit of The Son was always with the gestating body. Others who have studied the union of soul and spirit in humans would not agree to that, but would heartily agree that the Spirit of Jesus has always existed, even before a body was provided for Him. We have no data upon which to make such an assumption regarding ourselves. We can use scripture to discern that the union occurs before birth, well before birth, given the circumstances of Mary visiting Elizabeth.

Mary, without any doubt in any Christian mind, gave herself, her body and life, to gestate the body of our Lord. In this, Mary is the mother of the body of The Son of God. She cannot be, ever, the progenitor of God.

Mary. She provided the egg, the DNA, and the milk and love and nurturing that His human body required. That is what we mean by ‘mother’. Anyone who claims otherwise is bearing false witness. I am not aware of any Scripture passage which would support the assertion that Mary provided the DNA used in construction the body of Jesus. Perhaps the catholic tomes contain such an astonishing assertion; could you cite the source?

The reading of this thread lends evidence to the reality that catholic hierarchy may claim it only means Mary was mother to the body of Jesus, but the myriad of title assumptions for Mary nearly all rest upon the calculated ambiguity created by stating Mary is the Mother of God. One must twist the meaning of mother as progenator of the child in order to misuse the meaning of Motherhood. A female can lend her womb to a new individual to whom she has made no gamete donation. She does not make the child, she gives a place and the sustenance while the new human makes the body.

The Bible speaks more to implantation of an already existing new human body. It does not say Mary donated half the DNA for the body, the embryonic Jesus.

[Iscool]

You persist in railing against an assertion that NO ONE, EVER, EVER, EVER has made. Namely, that Mary pre-existed God the Son. Only an idiot would think that.

Well, here's on of your own idiots, right on this thread...

To: MHGinTN
So where did you get a seminary degree that does not include some training in logic?

Irrelevant. Christianity is in question here. The teachings are in question.

Can a woman be the physical mother of someone who pre-existed her?

Yes, the only person I know where this is so is Mary. This is because God does not exist in time. So saying that He existed before Mary conceived Him is inaccurate. Time has no meaning to the God who created all of the beginning and ending of creation in a single act. Once again, the Motherhood of Mary does not make her the sole author of the existence of Jesus. Motherhood does not imply sole authorship to begin with.

741 posted on 1/5/2016, 4:24:18 PM by Bayard

[BlueDragon]

You persist in railing against an assertion that NO ONE, EVER, EVER, EVER has made. Namely, that Mary pre-existed God the Son. Only an idiot would think that.

Excuse me, but I was not "railing".

It appears that you may be, though.

The title "Mother of God" when lacking extra explanation which limits that to be mother of the incarnate Christ, is left with imply (at the very least) that Mary existed prior to God, or that she was His "mother" prior to her own self being born. From God's own view, perhaps that is. From our own more limited viewpoints, rather stuck as we are within the timelines of our own existences, it simply could not be that she became pregnant and birthed a child prior to herself being in physical existence.

The term Theotokus (more literally translated into English as "God Bearer", than Mother of God) when it is insisted be used across the board implies that she is mother of that second "person" of the Trinity, instead of in more limited fashion ---be mother of the earthly incarnation of that "second person" of the Trinity.

Did you catch that distinction?

It is fair for one to speak towards the physical side of "things" in this, for among what else is said to be of utmost importance, is that Christ, the begotten son of God, came to this earthly, physical realm -- in the flesh.

Much of the basis for objection and push-back on towards the term "Mother of God" occurring here in regards to Mary, is due to the generally obvious transference of what role Mary played as for the physical Incarnation of that second person of the Trinity to be casually applied to extend and persist in Heavenly realm unto this present day, inducing the fervently pious towards speculation and creation of defined one-going role for "Mary" far beyond and most nearly entirely outside of the monotheistic outlooks of the the original generations' Christians.

But I think I'm done trying to get this point across, for the time being.

Go ahead though -- rant and rave (and rail) on, to your heart's content.

[Elsie]

You’re back to your old habit of changing one or two words and posting the result as though it meant something.

No; the habit is pointing OUT one or two words that someone has typed that mean a LOT!

[Elsie]

You have not even attempted to explain how a woman can have a son who is God without being the mother of God.

Well; as long as the 'god' in question never pre-existed; I guess your point might have some validity; otherwise...

[Elsie]

"Father; I'm heading to Earth now; to bring the long awaited salvation to men.

"Along the way, I'll be passing through the body of a young woman named Mary.

"Just a head's up: a lot of folks are going to really appreciative of her."

[Elsie]

This partial quoting habit of your is disingenuous at best and completely dishonest at worst.

Beats a constant habit of a sliver of truth surrounded by lots of conjecture that Rome puts out.

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Perhaps you'd like to point out what actually galls you; so that it can be discussed at length.

[Elsie]

For example, out of the first six translations in your link, no two are identical. The message is the same, though.

Here's a couple whose messages are DIFFERENT!

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See some differences between GOD's Word and the Joseph Smith's 'translation'

 

 

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Color coding explanation:

 

Added stuff... Changed stuff... Rearranged stuff... Removed stuff... 

 *(UNDERLINED stuff is the DISTRACTING reference on every tenth word or so that infuses LDS 'scripture' online.)

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JOSEPH SMITH—MATTHEW An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23: 39 and chapter 24. Jesus foretells the impending destruction of Jerusalem—He also discourses on the second coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked. 1 aFor I say unto you, that ye shall not see me henceforth and know that I am he of whom it is written by the prophets, until ye shall say: Blessed is he who bcometh in the name of the Lord, in the clouds of heaven, and all the holy angels with him. Then understood his disciples that he should come again on the earth, after that he was glorified and ccrowned on the right hand of God. 2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple; and his disciples came to him, for to ahear him, saying: Master, show us concerning the buildings of the temple, as thou hast said—They shall be thrown down, and left unto you desolate. 3 And Jesus said unto them: See ye not all these things, and do ye not understand them? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here, upon this temple, one astone upon another that shall not be thrown down. 4 And Jesus left them, and went upon the Mount of Olives. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews; and what is the asign of thy bcoming, and of the cend of the world, or the destruction of the dwicked, which is the end of the world? 5 And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you; 6 For many shall come in my name, saying—I am aChrist—and shall deceive many; 7 Then shall they deliver you up to be aafflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be bhated of all nations, for my name’s sake; 8 And then shall many be aoffended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another; 9 And many afalse prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many; 10 And because iniquity shall abound, the alove of many shall wax cold; 11 But he that remaineth asteadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved. 12 When you, therefore, shall see the aabomination of bdesolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of cJerusalem, then you shall stand in the dholy place; whoso readeth let him understand. 13 Then let them who are in Judea flee into the amountains; 14 Let him who is on the housetop flee, and not return to take anything out of his house; 15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes; 16 And wo unto them that are with achild, and unto them that give suck in those days; 17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; 18 For then, in those days, shall be great atribulation on the bJews, and upon the inhabitants of cJerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time; no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel. 19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them. 20 And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be asaved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the bcovenant, those days shall be shortened. 21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews; and again, after the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe him not; 22 For in those days there shall also arise false aChrists, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant. 23 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the aelect’s sake; and you also shall hear of bwars, and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for all I have told you must come to pass; but the end is not yet. 24 Behold, I have told you before; 25 Wherefore, if they shall say unto you: Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not; 26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the aeast, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the acarcass is, there will the eagles be bgathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth. 28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars. 29 Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be afamines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax acold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved. 31 And again, this aGospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all bnations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked; 32 And again shall the aabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled. 33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the asun shall be bdarkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the cstars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 34 Verily, I say unto you, this ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled. 35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my awords shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled. 36 And, as I said before, after the atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth bmourn; and they shall see the cSon of Man dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory; 37 And whoso atreasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall bcome, and he shall send his cangels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the dremainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 38 Now learn a parable of the afig-tree—When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh at hand; 39 So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors; 40 But of that day, and hour, no one aknoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only. 41 But as it was in the days of aNoah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man; 42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the aflood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage; 43 And aknew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the alast days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other bleft; 45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left; 46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; awatch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come. 47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready. 48 Therefore be ye also aready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh. 49 Who, then, is a afaithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 50 Blessed is that aservant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing; and verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 51 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord adelayeth his coming, 52 And shall begin to smite his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, 53 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 54 And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and agnashing of teeth. 55 And thus cometh the aend of the wicked, according to the prophecy of Moses, saying: They shall be cut off from among the people; but the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by. The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

KJV Matthew 23:38-39 24:1-51 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. 1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25. Behold, I have told you before. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. King James Version of the Holy Bible Public domain

[Elsie]

Scramble mine; please!

I can’t stand gooey!

[Elsie]

The Holy Spirit did not inspire Matthew to reveal which prophets spoke those words

Or the Jews to record them in the OT; either.

[Elsie]

Catholics seem to use Mormon tactics a lot. Pretty Pharisaical

while...

Mormons seem to use Catholic tactics a lot. Pretty cunning.

[omegatoo]

“Aside from the fact that I did not say you claimed your spirit or soul has existed forever, it would be interesting to see on what you base the assertion that your soul was created before your conception in you mother’s womb.”

Actually, you did:

“ThaT God can see the end from the beginning does not authorize one to assume everything in existence has been existing since the beginning of everything. Try again.”

This was your response to my saying my soul existed before my body, so what else could you have meant?

Again:

Jeremias (Jeremiah) 1:5
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

How could God know me if I didn’t exist? What part of me exists independent of my body? My interpretation of this is that it is my soul. What do you think it means? And why is your interpretation more valid than mine?

As for Mary contributing DNA to Jesus’ human body:

“Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb.” Not ‘you will implant in your womb’ or ‘you will surrogate in your womb’. Conceiving implies contributing DNA, that is the normal definition. If you want to believe an exception occurred and in this case conception occurred without the DNA contribution of the mother, I believe that the burden of proof is on you for this one. I’d assume the other half came from the Holy Spirit, but there’s no reason God couldn’t have doubled Mary’s and provided a Y. I’d like to see Jesus’ DNA profile. What does spiritual DNA look like?

Love,
O2

[Elsie]

I do not accept your premise.

Then the jury awaits your explanation of what is wrong with it...

All humans; born of normal human parents; are sinners.
Mary was born of normal human parents.
Therefore; she was a sinner.

[Elsie]

If you accept this premise, you must logically accept what follows.

WHY 'must' I?

Because YOU have been taught it?

[Elsie]

Explain your objections to 'Mary is the mother of Jesus'.

Hail Mary; Mother of Jesus; pray for us sinners...

---

I'm sure that YOU have no objection to say this, instead of an unbiblical phrase you've been taught.