Posted on 12/20/2015 2:34:41 PM PST by marshmallow
Rome, Italy, Dec 19, 2015 / 03:39 pm (CNA).- The Shroud of Turin has different meanings for many people: some see it as an object of veneration, others a forgery, still others a medieval curiosity. For one Jewish scientist, however, the evidence has led him to see it as a meeting point between science and faith.
"The Shroud challenges (many people's core beliefs) because there's a strong implication that there is something beyond the basic science going on here," Barrie Schwortz, one of the leading scientific experts on the Shroud of Turin, told CNA.
Admitting that he did not know whether there was something beyond science at play, he added: "That's not what convinced me: it was the science that convinced me."
The Shroud of Turin is among the most well-known relics believed to be connected with Christ's Passion. Venerated for centuries by Christians as the burial shroud of Jesus, it has been subject to intense scientific study to ascertain its authenticity, and the origins of the image.
The image on the 14 feet long, three-and-a-half feet wide cloth is stained with the postmortem image of a man - front and back - who has been brutally tortured and crucified.
Schwortz, now a retired technical photographer and frequent lecturer on the shroud, was a member of the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project which brought prestigious scientists together to examine the ancient artifact.
As a non-practicing Jew at the time, he was hesitant to be part of the team and skeptical as to the shroud's authenticity - presuming it was nothing more than an elaborate painting. Nonetheless, he was intrigued by the scientific questions raised by the image.
Despite his reservations, Schwortz recounts being persuaded to remain on the project by a fellow scientist on the team.....
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicnewsagency.com ...
While that may be your opinion. It does not represent a rejection of the 2nd Commandment. Those commandements are still valid but the 2nd commandment is more about having false Gods as Idols. This was given before God revealed Himself in the Peron of Jesus Christ. The Incarnation of Christ means that God has revealed his true image in the Person of Jesus CHrist, who was a Divine Person with both a Divine Nature and Human Nature. To reject Icons and sacred art was rejected as the Inconoclast Heresy, which was condemned at the Council in 787 of 2nd Nicea, and this is of course 730 years before Luther and Calvin. So even the most strident FR Protestant on this site can’t assign this Doctrinal Definition as part of the Council of Trent which ended in 1564.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum07.htm
Christ had no Sin, bearing sins does not mean he had sin. THat is an expression to convey he bore our sins on the Cross, it does not mean his Humanity was tainted by Sin, either Original or Personal sin. To posit that Christ had sin would be defacto heresy.
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There still are miracles performed but the media (world wide) would sooner choke on a bone than report it as a bona fide miracle.
How very true!
“You seem to interpret every statement in Scripture, even those that clearly are using physical things or images of physical things to represent spiritual realities, as bald statements of physical events.”
It is quite ironic when an advocate of the doctrine of transubstantiation accuses someone of misinterpreting scripture due to that person not recognizing that physical things (such as the blood of Christ) could be merely representative of spiritual realities.
There is a Man in Heaven. This Man is Christ Jesus. He is there bodily, right now.
Acts 7:55-56
But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
Acts 17:31
because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.
Col. 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
[note: dwells is present tense]
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
Neither the body nor blood of Christ are merely metaphorical. Christ’s physical body died on the cross and was buried and was raised from the dead. His literal, physical blood was shed on the cross. His literal, physical body is in Heaven right now. He entered Heaven as a Priest and as the Sacrifice being offered. And He offered His own literal, physical blood.
“The body and blood of Jesus, united hypostatically to the Word, are as physical as yours and mine.”
True. That is the point of my posting the above verses. Christ became a Man. The hypostatic union is irrevocable. Christ never ceased to be a Man and will always be a Man.
It is not merely that God indwelled human flesh, though this is also true. But more, the Word became flesh. And though Christ’s body WAS mortal, so that He was able to experience death, His flesh and blood were incorruptible just as the Word of God is incorruptible.
I think that is essentially what I said. I was offering a rebuttal in which the ambiguous term “untouched” was used to describe Adamic sin in relation to Christ’s body. Yes, Christ was a perfect sacrifice. He had no sin. But our sins were placed on Him. My point was to clarify what we probably all agree on.
I never said that Jesus’ blood is not in heaven. I said it is preposterous to say that EVERY DROP of Jesus’ blood that ever existed is still in existence. A totally different matter.
You are not responding at all to what I said.
I believe everything you said in your last post. But it’s irrelevant.
The issue was whether every drop of blood that ever flowed in Christ’s veins is still in existence. You said YES.
This is preposterous. Jesus lived about 33 years—actually, perhaps, 40. A human being’s body contains all new material every seven years, they say. So the material that was once Jesus equals almost six entire bodies. What happened to all the material that was once constitutive of Jesus’ body? It’s incorruptible, you say. So where is it? Six bodies’ worth!
YOU’RE the one who said not a single cell or drop of blood of Jesus ever corrupted. None of the Scripture you have cited supports that preposterous notion.
“This is preposterous. Jesus lived about 33 years—actually, perhaps, 40. A human being’s body contains all new material every seven years, they say. So the material that was once Jesus equals almost six entire bodies. What happened to all the material that was once constitutive of Jesus’ body? It’s incorruptible, you say. So where is it?”
As I said before, the incorruption of Christ’s body and blood is miraculous. Therefore, knowing how, where, why, etc. are not essential. While Christ’s body was mortal, and fully human, it was different from our bodies in that it never was corrupted by Adamic sin. I think it is reasonable to believe that it underwent no corruption whatsoever. Perhaps an incorruptible body does not need to constantly replenish dying cells. I do not know.
1 Corinthians 15:35-38
But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
You believe in transubstantiation. Have you ever asked yourself how tons of bread and wine could be transformed into Christ’s physical body and blood?
I believe that those who are in Christ are joined to Christ in a spiritual union by God’s Spirit. And some day this unity will come to a fruition as our bodies are transformed into incorruptible and immortal bodies as His is now. How God will accomplish this is a great mystery. In some form and fashion we are already joined to Him as parts of His body. But what God is doing in this regard will not be complete until the resurrection.
The corruption of sin resides in our mortal bodies now. This is true even for believers. However, part of God’s plan of redemption involves the redemption of our bodies. The salvation process requires an exchange — my corruption for His incorruption, my sin for His righteousness, my mortality for His immortality.
It is my opinion that the references to Christ’s incorruptible human nature applies to His entire mortal existence. The scripture says His blood was not a corruptible thing, and God would not allow His body to go through corruption.
There is a sense in which the Eucharist is NOT "Christ's physical body and blood." Christ's physical body and blood are physically present in heaven--wherever that may be, physically. It is inaccurate to say that Christ's body and blood are "physically" present in the Eucharist. It IS accurate to say that Christ's real body and real blood, which are physical things, are present in the Eucharist.
"Transubstantiation" means exactly what the words of Jesus (This is my body/blood...) mean: that THIS, that I am holding in my hand, IS (not "represents," not "suggests," not "reminds you of...") my body/blood. The Catholic Church teaches "transubstantiation" because only the concept of "transubstantiation" preserves the clear meaning of the words Jesus spoke when he instituted the sacrament. All contrary doctrines on the Eucharist explain away the words of Jesus.
"Transubstantiation" means that the whole substance of the bread and wine are changed into the whole substance of the Body and Blood of Christ. This is not a physical process or a natural event. It is entirely miraculous. Not one physical atom, proton, neutron, or electron is disturbed by the event of transubstantiation. Thus, absolutely nothing regarding the physical characteristics or appearances of the bread and wine are changed. But the Body and Blood of the Risen Christ are now present, really and substantially, and the bread and wine no longer exist, but only their appearances--their "accidents."
For example: Suppose Jesus, physically present in heaven, weighs 180 lbs. If one ton of bread is consecrated, Jesus does not suddenly weigh one ton. Rather: In the whole one ton of bread, the 180-lb. Jesus is really and substantially present. If a piece of the "bread" weighing 3 grams is broken off, the 180-lb. Body of Jesus is present, really and substantially, in that piece of "bread." And Jesus is present with all HIS accidents: His height, weight, brown hair, etc. HIS accidents are not visible to us, of course, just as his very body is not visible to us.
Similarly, if 1,000 gallons of wine are consecrated, Jesus does not suddenly have 1,000 gallons of blood. Rather, the normal quantity of blood in an adult male (since Jesus is Risen, i.e., alive) is now present, really and substantially, in the whole 1,000 gallons of "wine" and in any portion of it, no matter how large or small.
Wikipedia has excellent articles on this. The first link is to the most thorough article on "transubstantiation." The others treat it in other contexts, such as the Mass and Eucharistic devotion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist_in_the_Catholic_Church#Transubstantiation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the_Eucharist#Catholic:_Transubstantiation
Thomas Aquinas's treatment of the Eucharist in the Summa Theologica:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4.htm
You can scroll down on the page to these links, or use them from here:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4073.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4074.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4075.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4076.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4077.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4078.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4079.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4080.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4081.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4082.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4083.htm
I am afraid we are not going to persuade each other on this matter, but for the record I will at least give some basic explanations as to why I disagree. Consider a significant passage regarding communion and Christ’s body:
1 Corinthians 11:23-29
For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
This ritual has a view to the past, present, and future. The past is indicated by the word “remember”. We do not remember what is present. Therefore, the bread and cup are symbols of what has already transpired, namely Christ’s death. Because Christ is no longer present in His mortal body to walk among us, we recall His life, His ministry, His teaching, His suffering, and His resurrection. His resurrection is pictured in these symbols because there is no body in the tomb. Christians are not like Muslims who endeavor to make a trip to Mecca. We do not need to go visit the burial site of Christ (although there is nothing wrong with doing so) because His body is no longer there. But we do recall the time of His mortal life through the ritual of breaking of bread as He instructed.
The present and future are also in mind in this tradition. It proclaims or “shows forth” Christ’s death (presently) until He comes again (in the future).
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
Luke 17:22
Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.”
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.
Christ’s “real presence” is not conditional upon breaking of bread. It has to do with gathering in His name. This is the local church. The church is Christ’s body, so any food or drink consumed by believers is essentially, at least in part, transformed into Christ’s body.
The bread and cup (it is never called wine in scripture) are ordinary. But God uses the ordinary for special purposes when they are consecrated for His purposes. Rather than building a shrine or image to Christ, He ordained that we would remember Him through perishable symbols. It was never intended for consecrated symbols or images to become a stumbling block by leading God’s people into idolatry.
In the first Corinthians passage above, it speaks of failing to discern Christ’s body. Discerning Christ’s body requires an understanding about what has transpired as a result of His death, resurrection, and union with believers by the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Discerning Christ’s body requires knowing that there is a natural body and spiritual body:
1 Corinthians 15:42-50
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Discerning Christ’s body requires an understanding that there can be no divisions among believers because there can be no division of Christ’s body.
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
Discerning the body of Christ requires understanding that the Church (not the hierarchal man-made system of clergy, cathedrals, shrines, relics, and books but all the men, women, and children who have trusted in Christ for salvation) is Christ’s body:
1 Corinthians 12:12-14
For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.
We can also see from the language used at the last supper that the bread and cup are symbols:
Luke 22:20
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.”
One way of expressing His words as recorded by scripture is that the cup IS the new covenant. A covenant is not a physical thing, though it may be represented in a physical object like a document. He also said in a passage I cited above that the bread is His body which IS BROKEN for you. But His body is no longer broken. This is past. Christ is no longer suffering on the cross. He is no longer being beaten. He no longer agonizes in the pains of death. The breaking of bread pictures Christ’s body which WAS broken for us. This sacrifice occurred ONCE and is FINISHED:
Hebrews 7:27
who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(See also all of Hebrews 10.)
John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
It can be seen plainly from the passages of scripture above that the bread and cup of communion are symbolic. They are transformed into the body of Christ in the same sense that all food believers eat become part of Christ’s body because believers’ bodies are parts of Christ’s body. Christ’s real presence does not require the symbols of the bread and cup, but these are given to remember the new covenant by which we have eternal life.
This is the point where your whole argument explodes. In liturgical prayer, and in theology, "remembering" is not the mere exercise of a function of the brain. In the mind of God, everything is present, and we constantly ask God to "remember" us and all sorts of things--things that are not past. In fact, when GOD remembers, the things he remembers are not merely recalled to thought, they are MADE real. When Jesus is asked, "REMEMBER me when you come into your kingdom," he does not respond, "Okay, I will think about you." He says, "This day you will BE with me in paradise." And that is exactly what the good thief was asking, because as a Jew, he knew that when God REMEMBERS us, we live.
The command to "Do this in REMEMBRANCE of me" in no way militates against the real PRESENCE, and in no way advances the notion that the Eucharist is a mere symbol.
I see that you nowhere quote John 6, where Jesus says his flesh is REAL FOOD, and his blood is REAL DRINK. Where Jesus repeatedly says we are to GNAW, CHEW, MUNCH his flesh.
Just as I predicted, you try to explain away the words of Jesus: This IS my body...This IS my blood..."
How odd that you quote 1 Corinthians 11:23-29, when every syllable of that passage reinforces the teaching that the Eucharistic species ARE the body and blood of Jesus. The verb TO BE is used again and again, and never the verbs "to signify," "to symbolize," etc. The entire passage is about how those who fail to believe this teaching are eating and drinking their own condemnation, and some may have caused their own physical death! That doesn't sound much like something that happens from consuming a nice, tame little piece of bread and a sip of wine.
Jesus was circumcised as a baby...skin and blood involved here...no record of it being preserved anywhere, but it must still exist, intact, according to your theory.
“In the mind of God, everything is present... And that is exactly what the good thief was asking, because as a Jew, he knew that when God REMEMBERS us, we live.”
God is not bound by time, but the thief was not thinking Christ would remember him in the present. He was asking Him to remember him in the future when He would come into His kingdom and then take action on his behalf. There is no ever-present contemplation going on in the mind of the thief that you are inventing. Besides that, communion involves us remembering. We, unlike God, are bound by time. And remembering means remembering.
“The entire passage is about how those who fail to believe this teaching are eating and drinking their own condemnation, and some may have caused their own physical death! That doesn’t sound much like something that happens from consuming a nice, tame little piece of bread and a sip of wine.”
No that is not at all what the passage is about. Paul wrote the Corinthians to correct a number of serious problems. Most of them revolve around their divisions and failure to recognize the spiritual union of believers as the “body of Christ”.
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
He also explains spiritual realities using figurative language numerous times, and shows this “discerning” is a spiritual rather than carnal activity.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 6:15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!
The church in Corinth had a problem with sexual immorality. Paul connects this with their failing to discern the body of Christ. This is the type of grave sin that was causing many to get sick and some to even die (the term “sleep” is used figuratively in chapter 11).
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
What comprises the bread spoken of here? “We”, that is believers, are that “one bread” and that “one body”. What body? The body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:17-18, 29
Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
Remember, discerning is a spiritual and not carnal act. They were acting divisively and not discerning the Lord’s body, which in part means they were failing to recognize that each of them as believers were a body part in Christ’s body. So how can Christ’s body be divided? It is not. So to treat brothers and sisters in Christ with contempt, especially is this reverent act of communion, is a sin deserving severe judgment which is exactly what was happening. The divisions among the Corinthian believers is specifically a failure to discern Christ’s body, and Paul corrects them for it.
Discerning requires recognizing what it is. Wrongly thinking that the church is some hierarchal system made up of clergy, and relics, and buildings, and real estate, and stained glass windows, and works of art, and writings, and many more things, is failing to discern the body of Christ. The church is believers, that is, people who have believed in Christ’s finished work for salvation. It is nothing more and nothing less. The church is the bride of Christ which He loves and redeemed by His own blood. The church is His body.
Thinking that Christ body and blood are corruptible things like bread and wine is failing to correctly discern Christ’s body. Thinking that believers are in communion consuming the incorruptible body and blood of Christ and that these are entering into their physical bodies is carnal (fleshly) minded thinking and does not discern the spiritual reality of Christ’s resurrection and spiritual union with believers through the indwelling Holy Spirit. If it were possible for us to eat and drink Christ’s incorruptible flesh and blood then those parts of our body which were nourished by this food and His incorruptible flesh and blood having become part of our bodies, our bodies would also never undergo corruption. Yet they do decay in the ground just like any unbeliever.
1 Corinthians 12:12, 26-27
For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ...
And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
“I see that you nowhere quote John 6, where Jesus says his flesh is REAL FOOD, and his blood is REAL DRINK. “
Well, between the two of us, it is I who is relying on scripture and by no means am avoiding any part of it. Let’s look at John 6.
John 6:35-40
And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Is consuming Christ’s body and blood a physical act or spiritual? I am not asking is it real. Spiritual realities are greater than physical realities. But my question is whether communion of Christ’s body is physical or spiritual. The above passage in John 6 indicates that those who partake will never hunger or thirst. Have you partaken of His body and blood? Do you ever become physically hungry or thirsty? If you can show me a person who has taken communion and never had to eat or drink again, I will concede that Christ is saying partaking of the bread and cup are consuming His physical body and blood.
John 6:53-58
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
Do those who have never eaten or tasted communion have “no life” in them? Christ said they have no life. Does this mean their bodies are not physically alive? Of course not. The audience here was physically alive and were hearing Him with their physical ears, but were spiritually dead and spiritually deaf and blind.
John 6:61-63
When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.”
Again, is Christ speaking carnally or spiritually. His words were spiritual words. He is describing something that is true and real, but a spiritual reality rather than a natural, physical, carnal one.
It is thus throughout John and the other scriptures about His earthly life.
John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
John 4:13-14
Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
He said these words about the Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit made out of water? Or does He transform Himself into water? No. Christ uses the physical water in the well to illustrate a true, valid reality, albeit a spiritual one.
John 8:43
Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
Why did they not understand what Christ was saying?
John 10:6
Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
John 10:9
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Was Jesus saying He is a literal, physical door? Did He have hinges? No. It is an illustration.
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
Is Christ a shepherd of literal sheep animals? No. He is saying we are like sheep, and He is like a shepherd toward us. He is better than any earthly shepherd. He is the Good Shepherd. He is the Perfect Shepherd.
John 11:11-14
These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.”
Was Lazarus dead or merely sleeping? The passage clarifies that Jesus was speaking figuratively. Although, as far as He is concerned, there is little difference between death and sleep.
John 12:46
I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
Was Jesus literally glowing and radiating light, illuminating the surrounding with His physical presence here? No. He uses natural illustrations to explain spiritual realities.
John 16:25
These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.
Matthew 13:10, 13, 34
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?...”
“Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand...”
All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them.
I have supported my comments with a large range of passages. I have shown that these are not merely me twisting some verse out of context but rather are the context of entire books of the Bible. Do not be stubborn about listening to spiritual truth. Light rejected brings darkness. Look at the evidence and be willing to be obedient. Those who truly desire the truth, those who seek wisdom whole heartedly, those who are willing to be obedient to God’s commands, those who keep seeking will find and know the truth.
Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
John 7:17
If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
Once again, you quote a passage of Scripture, then explain away what it clearly says. Luther. Rinse. Repeat.
Yes, there is such a thing as “carnal thinking.” There’s also a phony “spiritual thinking” that rejects or undermines the Incarnation.
This conversation began with your assertion that Christ’s blood could undergo corruption.
“you quote a passage of Scripture, then explain away what it clearly says”
I do not explain away but draw attention to the specifics of what is being said and which contradict your false doctrines.
You rely on scripture as merely a springboard for erroneous assertions such as the Corinthians dying being evidence of the severity of rejecting your unsupported doctrine.
Only someone who has made up his mind prior to looking at the evidence would come away with your conclusions.
And so even if you are unwilling to submit yourself to the word of God and are therefore deceived inevitably due to your decision, I will still not leave these false claims without answer for the benefit of others who may read them.
While your so-called church was busy burning believers like William Tyndale at the stake for spreading God’s word to common people, it was also solidifying false doctrines such as transubstantiation. It is on the word of wicked men such as these that you support your doctrine rather than scriptures.
I do not base my beliefs on Luther but on the scriptures. These are the same scriptures your so-called church strove to suppress and hide. And to this day this “church” is unrepentant of its murders and attempts to keep people form God’s word. But God’s word could not be bound. And it is now in the hands of people everywhere. And it will not be hindered from its work in the hearts of people who submit to it, regardless of all the clever lies and false doctrines that seek to twist its meaning into many perverse things.
Those who have ears to hear, let them hear.
“but it must still exist, intact, according to your theory”
Straw man. I never asserted HOW His flesh and blood remain incorruptible.
I never said that His body remained “intact”. Christ’s humanity began with a supernatural conception. His body was continuously transformed as He grew from infancy to adulthood. He was transfigured before His death also. His death certainly did not leave His body “intact”. Even after His resurrection He showed the evidence in His body of the nail and spear wounds. Incorruption is not the same as intact.
Your mockery is no different than that of atheists who mock the virgin birth and resurrection.
When you have learned some history from someplace other than Jack Chick comics, I might be interested.
You have no idea where I learned from.
Do you deny the Catholic church burned William Tyndale at the stake?
Do you deny that shortly thereafter they had the Council of Trent where they added the penalties for disagreeing with their doctrine of transubstantiation?
The Catholic church whitewashes this ugly part of its history and in so doing remains unrepentant of its wicked murder of true servants of God.
Just as the religious leaders during Christ’s earthly ministry rejected the Word of God in favor of manmade doctrines and traditions, and excused their own sacrilege, disobedience, and willingness to murder to preserve their power and defend their doctrines and practices, so the Catholic church has been willing to murder those who oppose it. Neither Christ nor the apostles did such violence, but somehow the entity that supposedly represents Christ and has apostolic authority could and actually did commit such acts. And afterwards continues to this day to justify its wickedness and remains unrepentant.
I don’t deny that it happened. I deny that it’s interesting.
Lots of Protestants killed a lot of Catholics. So what?
It’s Christmas
I think God is ok with you guys putting all the denominational chauvinism on vacation as we commemorate Christs birth on this chosen date
Merry Christmas
No I’m not Catholic but neither am I my way or the highway
I think we ...I’m southern baptist pretty much though enjoy any literalist preacher or padre.....I think....heck I know this for a fact
Western civilization owes more to Christendom and by default the Catholic Church than any other single entity for preserving civilization and a link to the only religion on earth which emphasizes a relationship between God and the individual....
And Catholic teachings and influence and power and Popes and on occasion even papal mercenaries sacrificed all to stop the very enemy who still threatens us today
The Arab moon god cult.....Islam
Martel....Cadiz....Alphonso...Ferdinand....James....Lepanto.....Vienna with Sobieski and the little friar
The Catholic Church stopped us from being prisoners to Islam and even though I don’t desire to be Catholic I darn sure appreciate that
Tell the lads at the rectory some of us are grateful Arthur
My oldest son and I were talking about this today while reviewing a book on Islam coveting Europe that Santa brought me
Not to mention the Church kept our history and traditions of western civ recorded going back way way before Jesus birth
Had they not done it who would have....this brings up Arthur’s talk about intellectualism being integral to Christian Faith
Which reminds me of Augustine and Aquinas....both very early influences of the process which eventually led to the enlightenment and our view of governance and freedom
Catholic intellectuals like them were a pit stop on the progression from Socrates and Aristotle to Hobbes Hegel and Locke and Rousseau etc
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