Posted on 10/12/2015 1:16:55 PM PDT by NYer
Knitting and related forms have been around almost as long as weaving.
I don’t doubt you but maybe it was all referred to as weaving.
As the term manufactured refers to many different things.
(Acts 19:11-12).
It’s interesting, having never heard of this, I just asked The LORD whatever happened to his Tunic without seam.
‘Numbers 21:9 relates that Moses made a bronze snake, elevated it upon a staff, and that anyone who looked upon it was healed of snakes bites (and it important to note in 2 Kings 18:4 that when the Israelites came to believe that the snake held in and of itself, it was destroyed. The Catholic Church has always stressed that relics hold no power inherently).”
One off, obviously, for Israel alone. Also shows the danger of idols - even from things God instructed them to make - let alone things people find on their own to idolize.
Clearly, nowhere is any Christian group told to make snake statues for healing.
“In 2 Kings 2:13, Elisha picked up Elijah’s cloak and took it away with him after the latter had been taken up, and God permitted a miracle to occur through the cloak.”
The miracle was from God. Elisha asked where the God of Elijah was and God answered. The mantle was symbolic of the authority of Elijah.
Nowhere are Christians taught or commanded to seek out mantles, nor to save them, nor to pass them on, nor that they hold any power.
“In 2 Kings 13:21, God performed a miracle through the bones of Elisha.”
These were not relics that were saved because of their powers. These were bones God used in this one instance to perform a miracle for His purposes.
“Acts 19:12 states that God performed miracles through cloaks and handkerchiefs that had been touched to Paul’s person.”
Nor does it encourage believers in Christ to do so, nor say they were saved, idolized, etc. Nor is it commanded. Nor is it taught by an Apostle.
“Post verses that say this is normative for believers in the Christian assembly.”
“Is this your way of dismissing Scriptural examples as one-offs?”
They were isolated instances in Scripture.
Never is it taught in Scripture.
Never is it commanded in Scripture.
The dangers are amply demonstrated by the instance you site in Numbers 21:9.
Finally...
“Sloppy. Catholics do not worship or idolize relics. Neither do we kneel before relics in and of themselves, but in reverence of God who graciously condescends to work through the object.”
Catholics routinely idolize relics, statues, etc. The internet has many pictures of such idolization.
Why do you phrase it as an either-or? Catholics have the Real Presence. I’ve never encountered that in an air-conditioned auditorium with copies “Become a Better You” in the seats.
And if a memorial of Jesus brings someone closer to the living Lord himself? Or are you worshipping the Bible because you spend time with it instead of with the living Lord?
It stems from YOPIOS. That's it! I don't understand their aversion to the Blessed Mother. What does scripture say? Luke 1:48 - "For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed." Scientifically, we know that since Jesus was fully God and fully man, esus' human nature would have had Mary's dna.
Could be, but if this particular garment were knitted or crocheted, I’m sure that would have been mentioned, because it would be quite unusual.
There are times where the Lord purposefully had the Jews leave reminders of His love and power through the artifacts.
The biggest ones to me:
Joshua 4
When the whole nation had finished crossing the Jordan, the Lord said to Joshua, 2 “Choose twelve men from among the people, one from each tribe, 3 and tell them to take up twelve stones from the middle of the Jordan, from right where the priests are standing, and carry them over with you and put them down at the place where you stay tonight.”
4 So Joshua called together the twelve men he had appointed from the Israelites, one from each tribe, 5 and said to them, “Go over before the ark of the Lord your God into the middle of the Jordan. Each of you is to take up a stone on his shoulder, according to the number of the tribes of the Israelites, 6 to serve as a sign among you. In the future, when your children ask you, ‘What do these stones mean?’ 7 tell them that the flow of the Jordan was cut off before the ark of the covenant of the Lord. When it crossed the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan were cut off. These stones are to be a memorial to the people of Israel forever.”
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.
I truly don't have an issue with anyone who believes the tunic and the shroud are real or not. It's just that many simply want them to be real because they believe that the history/age of the garments justifies their church. So many have no true testimony about their own change. They simply rely on church history. This is true of any segmented group of believers you can find.
I don't need all of that stuff to keep me busy. Evidence that I have is that I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and that I am a completely changed man as a result.
It's all about the value that some give to these “artifacts” that bugs me, and the great amount of time some put in them, as if their faith relies on things that can be touched and seen.
For us Catholics, this is a daily reality. We have the Real Presence of the Lord in the Eucharist.
“I will never understand the non-Catholic aversion to this nor the Shroud.
“It stems from YOPIOS. That’s it! “
Oh?
Maybe it is because no shroud, nor relic is necessary for salvation, nor a relationship with the Lord. Scripture has exactly what it takes for both.
If you do not base your evaluation of spiritual things on the Scriptures - as Christ did - what do you base this on?
“their aversion to the Blessed Mother.
I know of no believer who has an aversion to Mary. In fact, I’ve posted that generally, protestants make too little of Mary and Catholics too much. Better to call her exactly what God Himself does, instead of making her into a demigoddess or just another Jewish woman.
The Greek word used in this passage can be written in our alphabet as “huphantos”, which primarily means ‘woven’, but has ‘knitted’ as an alternate meaning.
[Note: Greek is certainly the original language for John’s Gospel, and there are no variations in this word among manuscripts.]
You are no doubt familiar with this symbol:
It is relatively common, especially in the United States, to find the caduceus, with its two snakes and wings, used as a symbol of medicine. The modern use of the caduceus as a symbol of medicine became established in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century.
Clearly, nowhere is any Christian group told to make snake statues for healing.
“You are no doubt familiar with this symbol:
Very interesting logo and yes, I am aware of it.
My statement remains true. Nowhere in Scripture is anyone taught to look to snake statues for healing. It was a one-time event in the Hebrew Scriptures that didn’t end well.
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The caduceus is an evil pagan symbol.
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Greek-shmeek!
The garment worn by Yeshua was a Talit.
A Talit is sort of like a thin carpet with a hole for the head.
They had “fringes” attached to the corners.
That fringe was what the “woman with an issue of blood” touched to be healed.
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Show us where the Catholic Church says that venerating the shroud or any other relic is necessary for salvation.
Show me where the Catholic Church instructs its members to do so. Perhaps you have a skewed understanding of relics.
Thank you. It's those sorts of posts that just scream "disingenuous".
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