Sigh, generally these discussions seem to break down along a few miscommunications, overreactions, and sometimes an actual theological disagreement.
Protestants tend to be uncomfortable calling Mary the mother of God believing this denigrates the honor due to God alone or places Mary in a position greater than God. Catholics see this as an overreaction- a mother gives birth to a person, not a nature.
Some protestants seem to go further, seeming to believe that Jesus is two persons with two natures and that Mary is only the mother of the human person. Catholics recognize this as Nestorianism which was condemned in the 400’s if memory serves.
Using the term Godbearer is a nice phrase- I doubt many Protestants would have a problem with that. If one does disagree with the phrase Godbrare, then they probably really are Nestorians. Makes for a nice theological test I suppose.
One point that Catholics often fail to make is that Catholics believe that Jesus existed as the Son of God before he was concieved, from all eternity in fact. If they don’t understand that, then chalk it up to crappy catechesis inthe 60s to present day.
Finally, Catholics tend to not make the point that we believe mothers (and fathers generally, but not in this case) assist God in the creation of a new body with which God joins a soul. A Catholic would say that protestants elevate the word mother too much (well maybe some Italian Catholics and Jews do too ;).
Sometimes I get the feeling that some people believe Jesus has to have an entirely separate set of DNA from Mary in order to be God. An honest Catholic would say thats possible but we don’t know and the Church doesn’t have a stated position. One problem with that line of thinking (unintended pun) is that Jesus is to be in the line of David. Legally he is through Joseph and Mary, but biologically he could only be through Mary. Interestingly to me, and unknown until the last century, all of the DNA needed to create a human male (biologically) can be found in a human female (just have to snip off and rearrange one of the X chromosomes). A miracle to be sure, but short work for God. Interesting to ponder on.
Do you believe Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? A yes or no answer will suffice.
What the word conceive means in Greek is different from English. Mary would only would need to provide the womb. John the Baptist said Mat_3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. In a recent news story of a gay couple paying a woman to rent her womb with some one else’s ovum and one of their sperm The woman is still referred to as mother. In Mathew 1:18 and 20 Mary is referred to as being with child of the Holy Ghost. Mary was indeed Blessed to participate in Gods plan to fulfill the scripture concerning Jesus. If Mary said no would another virgin do? Certainly the Bible is silent on any preparation for Mary other than Gods election.
They always seems like a bunch of lawyers arguing the details of a law, the meaning of the words, the language, the spelling, the dictionaries, the references, the sources...arguing and arguing.
Same stuff, over and over again. Iron rods refusing to bend. Each one right, the other one wrong.
Weird thing is, I'd no sooner open a door to one of those discussions and I’d be sucked in to their whirlpooling circular arguments, each swirling down and around while reaching for the highest authority on the highest authority, and each arguing that they have the Holy Spirit interpreting the Law for them.
I think it’s kinda funny or funny sad and/or sadly ironic to argue the letter of the law like that, since it seems to cancel out the Spirit behind it.
Then, to claim it’s the Spirit making them argue? Lol…it’s just too much.
And damned if I don’t get sucked in too, and then definitely am once I do!
Huh...never knew that about my "self" until I saw it (my self) in action.
Thankfully, I think I finally realized that I’m not a lawyer and don’t like arguing The Law like that, especially not about who best knows Daddy's meaning of “is”.
Then, it hit me. This is exactly the same thing happening on a grand scale in the politics and national dialog of our nation and every other.
We love our own letter of the law and we join and pit one group against the other arguing the meaning of “is” so hard that the spirit that gave “is” meaning is lost.
Then that spirit is replaced by something altogether different, the demon spirit of "The Arguer" bearing some bitter fruit.
Someone with both vision and discernment told me that if you’re quiet, you can hear satan’s laughter in these discussions.
And if you look up, you’ll see Jesus weeping as the arguments cut him again and again, His blood staining His robe all over again, just as when He walked as a man.
That’s an awareness way higher than my energy level and spiritual paygrade, but I’d like to work for my promotion, so it’s back on the trail for this seeking hiker.
Ever hear the expression “the eyes are the window to the soul” or that “God is the Light”? Well, apparently my glasses needed cleaning.
What I first "saw" as people arguing over “The Law” was true from that point of view, but the view was still a bit fuzzy.
Once I cleaned my glasses and let in more of the Light, and then used the “Seeker” filter set to “Hiker” mode, I could then see that what I saw before as “The Law” is actually “The Map” that leads HOME!
Using that same filter, the glasses showed that everyone was arguing over "The Map" and the details, while marking over huge chunks of spiritual territory with “Here there be dragons!”.
And then they started arguing about that, too! Lol...
About what colors of crayons to use to mark them with, where the borders are, how big the dragons are, etc., etc.
Personally, what good is a map if you don't use it, right?
I think maps are meant to be followed and I know that the best maps lead to some seriously awesome, but usually buried, treasure, so I’m off to see for myself.
You know what? I bet I find some better glasses along the way, too. That’s the part I like best, finding cool stuff along the trail.
Most times it’s like hunting for morel mushrooms the first time you go. At first, you don’t see them no matter where you look until you find that first one.
After that, it’s like your inner "target seeker" is now calibrated correctly and you see ‘em all over the place!
I bet I also find a pair of glasses that helps me see exactly where to step, too. The original foot prints are still there, but they're hard to see.
I know this much, no matter where and what this map takes me to and through, I know where it leads.
I'll try to send some postcards back to those still back at the start arguing about the map.
I bet they tear them up without even looking at the picture on the front, let alone read the note, but, who knows, I might be wrong about that same way I was about how I saw "The Law".
Note to self: "Keep those glasses clean!"
Interesting and thoughtful analysis. I believe Nestorius got a bad rap. Some scholars have recently concluded there was a technical language barrier that led to Nestorius being misunderstood, that his “two persons” were functionally identical to the “two natures” of Chalcedon. Based on this, I believe there are even discussions of reconciliation with the still existing Nestorian churches, a kind of belated apology for a tragic misunderstanding.
Which all goes to your larger point, if I understand it correctly, that there can be a great deal more heat than light in some of these conversations, and it is incumbent on all of us to nurture whatever good we can out of these conflicts.
Peace,
SR