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To: imardmd1
No. The context is the literal use of cloud, which is the context of Mt. 24:30 and Mk. 13:26, and as understood by the Sanhedrin in His trial (Mt. 26:64, Mk. 14:62) and not in the figurative sense of Heb. 12:1. This is not a metaphor, and cannot be taken so in this context.

Yes. Daniel 7:13 is the Old Testament example of the coming of Christ that Thessalonians refers to. Strong's H6050 refers back to H6049 a "very large army". Remember Elisha opening the veil of the clouds and showing his armor-bearer the very large army God assembled for that day they would prevail? When we meet, it it be the clouds of people all taken up at once, good, bad, whatever. 7 billion of us at once.

Sorry, in this it is not "spirit" in Strong's Dictionary of his Concordance, nor is it "spirit" anywhere in the Authorized Version. It is never used in the figurative sense. In this, your claim is absolutely wrong:

The Strong's word for "spirit" is H7307 which of course also means "air". For a human to meet anyone in the "air" they must be in the spirit. When Thessalonians says anyone is going to meet anyone else in the air, that means that they must have moved into the Strong's H7307, into the spirit.

This is entirely presuming that the Seventh Trump of Rev. 11:15 has any connection with the trumpet of this context. Even the contexts are not the same. I just don't believe your hypothesis here can be given any serious recognition, because it is eisegesis, not exegesis, and even then forced. The correct frame of mind is given in the next chapter, verses 9 and 10: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." Not His tribulational wrath, because of the imputation of Christ's righteousness, and certainly not of Satan's. Furthermore, I believe the salvation mentioned here is not only the cetification of it by entrance into His Kingdom through justification by faith, but the realization of it by the saving through joining Him in the clouds in the new spiritual body. Anything else than that is not much of a salvation, is it?

Oh no! He wants the Tribulation to be a time of great glory for Him and for those that love Him. Remember what happened to the three Hebrews in Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace, a fire seven times hotter to instantly kill anyone, and Jesus stood with them and not a hair was singed and no smell of smoke accompanied the three Hebrews when they emerged. All the prophets wanted to live in our time. Why? To run away? No! To stand against Satan. God's people have nothing to fear from the Tribulation, it's a time of glory for them.

722 posted on 08/01/2015 1:01:46 AM PDT by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: Partisan Gunslinger
If you have lived your whole life devouring scriptures and have never done a structural analysis of scripture, you are already way ahead of most Christians who only read their Bibles when their pastor says, "Now open your Bibles and turn to John 3:16." So for me to ask you to begin looking at the scriptures to observe the structure within the scriptures, is like asking you to "fish on the other side of the boat."

What more is there to "fishing" than what you already know? Remember, Peter was a FISHERMAN. He KNEW everything there was to know about FISHING. Along comes Jesus who did not have the experience that Peter did, and yet in a moments time, there were more fish in the net than could be counted. Later, the miracle of fish took on an additional characteristic. The fish were counted totaling 153 fish.

One thing that you will not notice.... there is no explaination why the fish were counted in one place, and not counted in another place. The reason I say that you will NOT notice it is because it is a detail the is merely mentioned, and there is no explaination as to why it is mentioned. In fact, you may argue that it has no significance because if it is only merely mentioned, and God would have had Paul write a chapter in the Bible about it if it was significant. On the other hand, you may argue that it IS a significant detail because the mere mention of it makes it significant.

 

 

http://www.newjerusalem.org/Articles/Bible-Structure-101

726 posted on 08/01/2015 3:37:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Partisan Gunslinger
Those in whom God has placed His Holy Spirit when they were born from above will not be on this Earth during the Tribulation. Those 'standing against the lawlessness' will be those Jews who are sealed for the work during the first half of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:5-8)

Those who comprise the Body of Christ, The Spiritual Church of Jesus Christ, dead and alive, will be caught up, caught away, into the clouds to meet the Lord in the Air and return to where JESUS told His disciples in John 14 He was going to prepare a place for them and return to take them there. The There will you be also is not here, it is THERE. The place is presumed to be Heaven since that is the theme in John 14 as Jesus gives the famous physics lesson for Philip.

The Theological reason for the Rapture of the Church prior tot he Tribulation is this: during the Church Age there is no differentiation between Jew and Gentile, as the Holy Spirit is put in the believers born from above. These indwelt believers are the salt, the restrainer of lawlessness during the Church Age. Their life message has no differentiation between Jew and Gentile. During the Tribulation, those named in Rev 7:5-8 are tasked with the evangelization of the doubting, lie believing, anti-Christ following WORLD. The task of the sealed 144,000 Jews is to proclaim the soon coming of The Messiah to touch down on the Earth and establish the Millenial Kingdom. The Church of Jesus Christ will be made The Bride of Christ in Heaven during the time the evangelization is occurring on Earth. Then, as shown in Revelation 19, that Bride will return with The Bridegroom, to utterly dstroy the armies of deniaers who are arrayed to annihilate Israel and all Jews fromt he Earth. These beast worshipping armies are arrayed to defeat The Lord of Hosts, The King of Kings, and His army from Heaven, an army comprised of those who came up tot he wedding from the first half of the Tribulation and the Church Raptured before the Tribulation started.

728 posted on 08/01/2015 7:44:23 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: Partisan Gunslinger
Yes. Daniel 7:13 is the Old Testament example of the coming of Christ that Thessalonians refers to.

To double down on "No" here is obviously redundant, but it is said to emphasize that your scheme is almost backwards of what is going on in Daniel 7:13. Your inapt choice of the context shows that this use of "clouds" is literal, not figurative-literal, the text clearly differentiates th clouds from the onlooking host, and the Son of Man is not exiting from heaven, He is entering the third Heaven. Matthew Henry (long before J. N. Darby) gives the correct understanding of the cloud(s) of Heaven:

". . . when he returned to the Father the eye of his disciples followed him, till a cloud received him out of their sight, Acts 1:9. He made that cloud his chariot, wherein he rode triumphantly to the upper world. He comes swiftly, irresistibly, and comes in state, for he comes with the clouds of heaven. 3. He is here represented as having a mighty interest in Heaven. When the cloud received him out of the sight of his disciples, it is worth while to enquire (as the sons of the prophets concerning Elijah in a like case) whither it carried him, where it lodged him; and here we are told, abundantly to our satisfaction, that he came to the Ancient of days; for he ascended to his Father and our Father, to his God and our God (John 20:17); from him he came forth, and to him he returns, to be glorified with him, and to sit down at his right hand."

In Daniel's vision, verse 14, the Son of Man was elevated in authority, above that of Satan on the earth, wherefore Jesus was able to return to earh for forty days, proclaim his exousia authority to His disciples at Galilee, and delegate them to go forth and make disciples, commanding that these made disciples be inducted and instructed. Then He finally was received back to heaven in a cloud, from whence He is likewise to return (in the clouds of the first heaven) in the fullness of time.

When He comes to receive His Own unto Himself, that where He is, His Bride also might be:

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know" (Joh 14:3-4 AV).

Now, PG, you would have those accompanying Jesus in His Second Coming be the cloud (singular), rather than be with Him in the clouds (plural), but this is not possible. Remember now, when He comes for His Own Friends and Bride, their souls cannot normally be seen with the eyes of the mortal, because they have not yet been rejoined to their revamped bodies in midair. However, Scripture indicates that the mortal eye can see the cloud of mist that diffuses and back-scatters visible light, before the dead are quickened and rise. But after that happens those who are yet alive will also be reconfigured and taken away with their no-longer-physically-dead confreres. I'm pretty sure then that there will be a "cloud" of saints in the clouds of the air, being taken back into Heaven with Him.

The Strong's word for "spirit" is H7307 which of course also means "air".

Well, very simply, in 1 Thess. 4:17 the Holy Spirit precisely chooses to use the Greek word αερα (air) which is always literal and cannot mean "spirit," rather than the word πνεῦμα which could mean either "air/wind" or "spirit," as in Jn. 3:8, according to context. I suspect the Holy Spirit chose this word αερα specifically to defeat the approach in interpretation that your doctrine takes you.

Remember what happened to the three Hebrews in Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace, . . .

What you can take with you from this story is that the Son of Man has already withstood this for us, so that we do not have to do it again to earn our way to heaven, as you seem to have it.

The bottom line is that your hypothesis doesn't hold up.

This is the end of the line on this thread for me. But thanks for the challenge.

738 posted on 08/01/2015 2:52:51 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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