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Was The Papacy Established By Christ? (Part 2)
triablogue ^ | June 24, 2006 | Jason Engwer

Posted on 06/19/2015 6:54:04 PM PDT by RnMomof7

Was The Papacy Established By Christ? (Part 2)

Because neither the apostolic nor the earliest post-apostolic Christians refer to a jurisdictional primacy of the bishop of Rome, Catholics often cite references to any type of primacy of the Roman church. But a non-jurisdictional primacy of the Roman church doesn't prove a jurisdictional primacy of the Roman bishop.

Even Peter himself isn't referred to as having papal authority among the early post-apostolic sources. Terence Smith explains:

"there is an astonishing lack of reference to Peter among ecclesiastical authors of the first half of the second century. He is barely mentioned in the Apostolic Fathers, nor by Justin and the other Apologists" (cited in Robert Eno, The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], p. 15)

Concepts of Petrine supremacy (as well as a primacy of Paul or James in some places, for example) did develop over time. Cyprian, for example, a bishop who lived in the third century, believed in a primacy of Peter, but it was a non-jurisdictional primacy (On the Unity of the Church, 4), and Cyprian repeatedly denied, in multiple contexts, that the bishop of Rome or any other bishop has universal jurisdiction (Letter 51:21, Letter 54:14, Letter 67:5, Letter 71:3, Letter 72:26). The Roman Catholic scholar Robert Eno wrote:

"it is clear that he [Cyprian] did not see the bishop of Rome as his superior, except by way of honor...it is clear that in Cyprian's mind, one theological conclusion he does not draw is that the bishop of Rome has authority which is superior to that of the African bishops" (The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], pp. 59-60)

Roman Catholic scholar William La Due:

"In the context of his life and his convictions reflected in his actions and his writings, Cyprian's position can be paraphrased as follows: Peter received the power of the keys, the power to bind and loose, before the other apostles received the same powers. This priority - in time - symbolizes the unity of episcopal power which is held by all in the same way. The only difference is that Peter was granted the power a short time before the others. It must be said that the impact of Cyprian's symbolism is not entirely clear. He was not a speculative theologian but a preacher, trained more as a lawyer than as a rhetorician. His meaning, from the context of his conduct as a bishop, seems quite unambiguous. And those who see in The Unity of the Catholic Church, in the light of his entire episcopal life, an articulation of the Roman primacy - as we have come to know it, or even as it has evolved especially from the latter fourth century on - are reading a meaning into Cyprian which is not there." (The Chair of Saint Peter [Maryknoll, New York: Orbis Books, 1999], p. 39)

Catholic scholar Klaus Schatz:

"He [Cyprian] does not rely on any specific responsibility of Stephen [bishop of Rome] as primate....Cyprian regarded every bishop as the successor of Peter, holder of the keys to the kingdom of heaven and possessor of the power to bind and loose. For him, Peter embodied the original unity of the Church and the episcopal office, but in principle these were also present in every bishop. For Cyprian, responsibility for the whole Church and the solidarity of all bishops could also, if necessary, be turned against Rome." (Papal Primacy [Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press, 1996], p. 20)

Even the conservative Roman Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott acknowledged:

"St. Cyprian of Carthage attests the pre-eminence of the Roman Church...However, his attitude in the controversy regarding the re-baptism of heretics shows that he had not yet achieved a clear conception of the scope of the Primacy." (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma [Rockford, Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1974], p. 284)

Eastern Orthodox scholar Veselin Kesich:

"In his controversy with Bishop Stephen (254-257), Cyprian expressed the view that any bishop, whether in Rome or elsewhere, was included in Jesus' message to Peter. Like Tertullian, Cyprian is unwilling to accept the claim of exclusive authority for the Bishop of Rome on the basis of Mt 16:18-19....Peter is not superior in power to the other apostles, for according to Cyprian all of them are equal." (The Primacy of Peter, John Meyendorff, editor [Crestwood, New York: St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1992], p. 63)

Anglican scholar J.N.D. Kelly:

"Cyprian made plain, that each bishop is entitled to hold his own views and to administer his own diocese accordingly...[In Cyprian's view] There is no suggestion that he [Peter] possessed any superiority to, much less jurisdiction over, the other apostles...While he [Cyprian] is prepared, in a well-known passage, to speak of Rome as 'the leading church', the primacy he has in mind seems to be one of honour." (Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], pp. 205-206)

In Cyprian we see an example of a father who thinks highly of Peter and the bishops of Rome without believing in a papacy. In fact, he contradicted the concept. With Cyprian in mind as an example of how Catholics often misrepresent the fathers to make them appear to have supported the papacy when they actually didn’t, let’s consider the earliest evidence cited by Catholic apologists.

Clement of Rome, the earliest church father and a Roman bishop, sent a letter to the Corinthian church to counsel them about a dispute involving the leadership of their church. Such letters were common in early Christianity (Ignatius' letter to Polycarp, Polycarp's letter to the Philippian church, etc.), and no jurisdictional superiority, much less papal authority, is implied by the sending of such a letter. To the contrary, the letter is written in the name of the church of Rome, not the bishop of Rome, and the letter makes many appeals to various authorities (scripture, Jesus, the apostles, the Holy Spirit, etc.), but never to any papal authority. Thomas Halton comments:

"Some scholars anachronistically saw in the epistle an assertion of Roman primacy, but nowadays a hermeneutic of collegiality is more widely accepted." (Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, Everett Ferguson, editor [New York: Garland Publishing, Inc., 1999], p. 253)

Other early sources, such as Ignatius and Dionysius of Corinth, commend the Roman church for virtues such as love and generosity, but say nothing of any jurisdictional primacy of the Roman bishop. Irenaeus speaks highly of the Roman church, but gives non-papal reasons for doing so. Roman Catholic scholar William La Due comments:

"It is indeed understandable how this passage [in Irenaeus] has baffled scholars for centuries! Those who were wont to find in it a verification of the Roman primacy were able to interpret it in that fashion. However, there is so much ambiguity here that one has to be careful of over-reading the evidence....Karl Baus' interpretation [that Irenaeus was not referring to a papacy] seems to be the one that is more faithful to the text and does not presume to read into it a meaning which might not be there. Hence, it neither overstates nor understates Irenaeus' position. For him [Irenaeus], it is those churches of apostolic foundation that have the greater claim to authentic teaching and doctrine. Among those, Rome, with its two apostolic founders, certainly holds an important place. However, all of the apostolic churches enjoy what he terms 'preeminent authority' in doctrinal matters." (The Chair of Saint Peter [Maryknoll, New York: Orbis Books, 1999], p. 28)

Similarly, Tertullian gives non-papal reasons for the importance of the Roman church (The Prescription Against Heretics, 36). Regarding Origen, the Catholic scholar Robert Eno explains that "a plain recognition of Roman primacy or of a connection between Peter and the contemporary bishop of Rome seems remote from Origen’s thoughts" (The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], p. 43).

The first reference to a papacy or something similar to it is found in the Roman bishop Stephen, acting in his own interests, around the middle of the third century. Peter had been dead for nearly two centuries before the doctrine first appears. When Stephen asserted it, he was opposed by bishops in the West and East, such as Cyprian and Firmilian. Thus, the papacy was absent, including in contexts where we would expect it to be mentioned, for about the first two centuries of church history, then arose in Rome and gradually became more widely accepted in the West and sometimes to some extent in the East. But even in the West, the papacy was accepted only gradually and inconsistently. Some of the earliest ecumenical councils would either imply or explicitly state a rejection of the doctrine. The Catholic scholar Klaus Schatz summarizes:

"Rome did not succeed in maintaining its position against the contrary opinion and praxis of a significant portion of the Church. The two most important controversies of this type were the disputes over the feast of Easter [in the second century] and heretical baptism [in the third century]. Each marks a stage in Rome's sense of authority and at the same time reveals the initial resistance of other churches to the Roman claim." (Papal Primacy [Collegeville, Minnesota: The Liturgical Press, 1996], p. 11)

It’s important to recognize that the early sources had many opportunities to mention a papacy if they believed in such a concept. When men like Clement of Rome and Tertullian comment on issues of authority and the status of the Roman church without mentioning a papacy, the absence of the concept is significant. When men like Ignatius and Irenaeus write at length on issues of authority and Christian unity, without even once mentioning a papacy, that absence is significant. They explicitly and frequently mention offices such as bishop and deacon. They explicitly and frequently make appeals to Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the apostles, prominent churches, and other authorities. They explicitly and frequently discuss the Messiahship of Jesus, the virgin birth, the resurrection, the unique authority of the apostles, and other basic Christian doctrines, so it can’t be argued that they didn’t mention a papacy only because it was already known to and assumed by everybody. The fact that other concepts were known and assumed didn’t keep the early sources from explicitly and frequently mentioning those concepts. Why didn’t they mention a papacy?

They did sometimes mention a prominence of the Roman church. And, thus, Catholic apologists have attempted to transform the prominence of the Roman church into a jurisdictional primacy of the Roman bishop. But if the papacy is an oak tree, the prominence of the early Roman church is more like an apple seed than an acorn. It has to be manipulated if we want to transform it into an oak tree. If the seed is being manipulated so as to arrive at a desired unnatural conclusion, then it’s not comparable to an acorn naturally growing into an oak.

The early prominence of the Roman church doesn’t logically lead to a papacy. The churches in Jerusalem, Rome, Alexandria, and other cities have been prominent at different times in church history for different reasons, and none of them can claim an apostolic jurisdictional primacy for their bishop as a result. It would be sort of like arguing that since the city of Philadelphia was prominent during the time of the founders of America, then the founders must have intended whatever authority claims the mayor of Philadelphia makes hundreds of years after the founders have died. If Ignatius thinks highly of the virtues of the Roman church or Tertullian commends the Roman church because some of the apostles labored and suffered in Rome, it doesn’t logically follow that these church fathers would agree with a later claim of universal jurisdiction by the bishop of Rome.


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other non-Christian; Skeptics/Seekers
KEYWORDS: catholicism; history; papacy; theology
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To: MHGinTN

I am saved by the atoning suffering and death of my Savior and given the hope of the eternal life by His Resurrection. Any and all “works” which I perform are to conform my will more closely to His.


21 posted on 06/19/2015 8:37:21 PM PDT by LurkLongley (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam-For the Greater Glory of God)
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To: MHGinTN

http://pigeonchess.com/playing-with-pigeons/


22 posted on 06/19/2015 8:43:14 PM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: LurkLongley
...as Latin Rite Christians, we are always being attacked, but, as Christians we are all under attack...

Funny, sounded like Latin Rite Christians are the only ones you regards as actual Christians.

Why should I fight you? I think I can find better uses for my time.

Indeed, why should Christians fight each other at all? Yet it seems to be their favorite sport.

23 posted on 06/19/2015 8:44:30 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: MHGinTN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002967921


24 posted on 06/19/2015 8:44:40 PM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: kinsman redeemer

I had no idea ... !


25 posted on 06/19/2015 9:05:10 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: LurkLongley

You are saved by faithing in His death and resurrection, and you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit (not yo-yoing ina nd out) because Jesus spread His blood upon the Mercy Seat over the law of sin and death. By His indwelling Spirit some of your walk will conform more and more to His character. The works doen in your body as one faithing in Him will have a ‘bathing’ (in the Glory of His Shekinah) IN HEAVEN to purify you as His Bride for the imminent Wedding ceremony. If you have accumulated wood, hay, and stubble, that will be burnt, but you yourself will be saved as by fire.


26 posted on 06/19/2015 9:10:12 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: LurkLongley

Why do you attack Luther? More Christians than you would believe do not need someone to interpret the scriptures and keep them in line. I read the Word and I see nothing about a building, heirarchy, or asking a man for forgiveness. The Church is the body of Christ. Those who come to him in faith, repent and are baptised, although that is not necessary. (see criminal on the cross next to Yeshua being forgiven). Our “walk” with Christ is totally personal. We need no mediator, in fact He is our mediator with the Father. It just came to mind that the Catholic Priest called a Father does exactly that. I don’t hate Catholics, I believe their walk is just as personal. As a Christian I am beholden to speak my piece. Do with it what you will, your salvation is not on my head. MINE IS if I do not say what I believe. If I am wrong, and lead someone astray that IS on my head. So I take this very seriously. Thanks for reading this, and be well.


27 posted on 06/19/2015 9:16:00 PM PDT by Glad2bnuts
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To: Talisker

We are under orders to contend for the faith.


28 posted on 06/19/2015 9:34:09 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: MHGinTN

The Catholic Church does not teach salvation through works. It does, in fact, regard salvation through works as a heresy. Yet Protestants continually bleat like an ipod stuck on repeat. Do you realize how foolish it is to dully insist on something that is demonstrably false? You can’t make a falsehood true by monotonously repeating it.


29 posted on 06/19/2015 10:21:48 PM PDT by Wyrd bið ful aræd
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To: LurkLongley

Alert the media—True Protestants believe Rome is an apostate church. How can that possibly surprise you?

And I never said you are not a Christian. A Christian is someone who has been born from above by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The New Birth is a miracle of grace. I can’t possibly know the condition of your heart. I remain hopeful there are those Catholics who are truly saved. I suspect there are many whose hearts are better than their understanding of doctrine. What I know for certain is that yours is an apostate church and as long as Galatians is in my Bible I will never waver from that notion.

What is with the Martin Luther stuff? That may have seemed like a witty slam, but it’s just silly and meaningless. I’m a Reformed Baptist. While I can appreciate certain aspects of Luther’s life and I believe he was used by God, I have major disagreements with his understanding. He has nothing to do with me.

You know, I started to say that yours is the ultimate manmade church, but that would be dishonest. Rome is Satan’s clever counterfeit that has fooled billions.

By the way, there is absolutely no witty slam, pejorative, invective, or rhetoric that can upset me or rattle my faith or upset me. There is nothing any Catholic can say here that hasn’t been declared boldly at the highest levels of Rome for centuries.


30 posted on 06/19/2015 11:09:43 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Burkianfrombrklyn

I’d ignore this rot from shallow Bible Christians. Apparently, until the Reformation of 1517, all saints, martyrs, the early Church fathers, Catholic theologians, those who assembled the written texts and declared it to be the true written Word of God in AD 382 and since then even those eminent Protestant theologians who converted to Catholicism, all got it wrong.
And oh, all of the following got it wrong too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Catholicism

Bible Christians believe they can each offer us “their” own interpretation of God’s word, and instead the authority given to Peter and his successors is up for grabs. Just look around and see the mudslides of heretical beliefs that have washed ashore as flotsam and jetsam since the arch progenitors of this heresy.

This crowd believes in “Christianity Lite,” and so they’d rush to any corner street blogger to capture their streams of interpretations. Jim Jones and David Koresh did the same thing.

Don’t waste your time arguing in shallow waters. Bible Christians drown in deep theological waters.


31 posted on 06/19/2015 11:54:35 PM PDT by Steelfish
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To: .45 Long Colt

Sorry, it was late, I was tired after long travel, and I viewed this “scholarly” piece as another in the long series of back and forth flame wars that are ALWAYS occurring on FR.

Thank you for your recognition of my possible Christianity, I am saved and I give thanks to God every day for it.

I mentioned Luther only in passing to illustrate the point about human inventors of all other sects.

I wish Godspeed on your journey, and I will issue a warning and an invitation. Be not so certain that all of your clever memorization of scripture and its attendant “understanding” isn’t the whisper of Satan in your ear, and I would welcome you home to full communion with Christ’s Bride our Holy Mother the One Holy Roman and Apostolic Church.


32 posted on 06/20/2015 3:52:31 AM PDT by LurkLongley (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam-For the Greater Glory of God)
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To: BipolarBob
And we're reading early Church History here if you bothered to read it before posting.

Eusibius: Church history

This is Church History, not the palaver foisted on you time and again.

33 posted on 06/20/2015 4:25:03 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playng chess with pigeons.)
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To: MHGinTN

Still not reading with comprehension I see.


34 posted on 06/20/2015 4:25:48 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playng chess with pigeons.)
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To: RnMomof7

Was The Papacy Established By Christ?


Paul is probably where it started as far as Bible teaching goes.

It was not started by Jesus or Peter.


35 posted on 06/20/2015 5:12:51 AM PDT by ravenwolf (t)
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To: RnMomof7

The elephant in the room that the author in both parts of this series avoids is that not until political issues emerged in Byzantine Empire did anyone question the primacy of the Pope. He is the successor of Peter in the Peterine Ministry.

It is completely easy work to sit here in 2015 and pick apart documents according to our understanding and agenda, but what you can’t refute is the EVIDENCE. Absolutely the understanding of the role of the successor of Peter became better understood over time, just as many other doctrines and Traditions were (Trinity, the Sacraments, the Canon and etc.), but that doesn’t take away from the fact that they were always believed.

In both parts of this series the authors arguments are sophistic, fails the test of rigor, and offers nothing more than a personal agenda.


36 posted on 06/20/2015 6:48:50 AM PDT by yosephdaviyd
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To: RnMomof7

I am continually amazed at the evidence against the current beliefs and structure of the Catholic Church yet many refuse to see the truth.


37 posted on 06/20/2015 6:49:19 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

In and of ourselves, I don’t think any of us can make a dent. The Lord has to open their eyes. Rome cleverly offers a system of religion that is satisfying to men.


38 posted on 06/20/2015 7:15:13 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

I agree it’s God who needs to lead them and open their eyes. It’s why I don’t get frustrated when so many don’t see the truth.


39 posted on 06/20/2015 7:18:53 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

When in spacetime is a person born from above?


40 posted on 06/20/2015 7:21:55 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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