Posted on 06/16/2015 11:58:25 AM PDT by ReformationFan
Please, it’s embarrassing to see people lamely explain away errors and continue to claim inerrantcy. There are 2500 documented errors of fact in the bible. Accept it as alegorical or continue to drink your own bath water.
Years ago I knew a Cuban-American guy who was a Santeria priest: he’s the only Mariolator I ever met. He was also into the recovery (or reconstruction) of Taino culture, esp. dancing and trancing.
If you know anyone who prays to Mary, "venerates" Mary, asks anything of Mary, or believes Rome's teaching about Mary espoused in CCC 969, then you know a Mariolater.
Do you agree with CCC 969? If you do, then you might know someone else who fits the bill. I hope you don't.
Hoss
Prove each and every one. Just saying it doesn’t make it true.
Hoss
Scripture is a compendium of extraordinary claims. The burden of proof is on you.
You make the claim, you back it up.
Hoss
CCC 969: 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
This is true and very beautiful, and no, it is not Mariolatry. It is necessary to see all this in the context of the Body of Christ. We each of us have a role in Christ's saving work, since we are members of His Body and the whole Church is incorporated into Christ. We are to be conformed to Christ, transformed.
In this context, whatever is said of Mary, is said to some degree or in some way to all who are in Christ. It is Christ who vivifies us, as the True Vine of Whom we are fruitful branches. It is Christ who is, above all and through all, Advocate, Helper, Benefactor, and Mediator.
Any other person --- or all persons --- who are united in Christ, have a share in this great work precisely because we are in Him. What is said of Mary, then, is emblematic of the whole Church (and here I do not mean, of course, just dues-paying pewsitters in a Catholic parish!)
Mary exhibits this cooperation with Christ to a uniquely high degree because "He Who is mighty has done great things" for His maidservant.
If you see this without context, you might be mistaken and think she is being called equal to Christ. This is not so. This could never be so, because she is a contingent, finite, dependent, created being, a human person; while Jesus Christi is a Divine Person: absolute, infinite, in and through whom all things were made.
In the Triune God we live and move and have our being. Mary --- like us --- is a member of His Body and under her Head, who is Christ.
Here's some context for you:
DECLARATION "DOMINUS IESUS": ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
A good pull-quote from Paragraph 15:
"One can and must say that Jesus Christ has a significance and a value for the human race and its history, which are unique and singular, proper to him alone, exclusive, universal, and absolute."
Do you agree with that paragraph? I do. Which is why a Catholic cannot be a Mariolator.
Sorry but I’m not responsible for your education. Any claim of water into wine, walking on water or resurrection from the dead requires proof. Doubting those claims does not. That’s how the discipline known as “logic” works.
Works for me. I hope you detected a strong presence of sarcasm; it was intended.
"5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"
Now. Do YOU believe THAT? CCC 969 teaches that Mary is a "mediatrix" -- and she is nothing of the sort. God's word says there is ONE mediator between God and men, the Man Jesus Christ.
One means one. Not two. One. Not Mary, not any other "saint" -- ONLY Jesus.
CCC 969 teaches a false gospel. It teaches that Mary in some way has a "saving office" -- NO ONE comes to the Father except through Christ Jesus -- remember, Jesus said, "no one comes to the Father but through me" in John 14:6. Where in scripture is this refuted? Where in "Holy Tradition" is the very word of God Almighty himself in Christ Jesus refuted? Did Christ lie?
Mary provides no intercession. Remember 2 Tim. 2:5 -- ONE mediator? It goes for intercession also:
Romans 8:34:
"Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us."
Where is Mary shown to be an intercessor except in the bilge of CCC 969? No one comes to the Father (is provided salvation) but through Jesus... but CCC 969 teaches that Mary provides... SALVATION? This is a false gospel. Only CHRIST provides salvation through his shed blood. No one participates with Christ in the act of salvation; that is by faith through grace... faith that is given to us by God, and grace extended to us by God. We were dead in trespasses and sins... dead. The dead can not participate in acting in some salvific way... God provides it ALL.
Attributing this kind of unbiblical and untrue authority to Mary by the Roman Catholic Church is the DEFINITION of idolatry... or, in this case, Mariolatry.
Hoss
And for that I'm manifestly thankful.
Doubting those claims does not.
Doubt away... but your discipline for logic and how it "works" is something then that I can doubt. And I do.
Hoss
I don’t think you quite addressed the part about the Body of Christ.
**God is beyond sex. God is not male, and he’s not a father**
We call male inventors the ‘father’ of this or that. Some may have not even had any help from a woman when thinking up their idea.
But, if you want to rewrite the Bible, I guess that’s as good a place to start as any.
That wasn't the issue; the issue was the Mariolatry practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, its false gospel presented in the CCC, and the scriptural refutations of it.
What's your take on that?
Hoss
No one participates with Christ in the act of salvation; that is by faith through grace... faith that is given to us by God, and grace extended to us by God. We were dead in trespasses and sins... dead. The dead can not participate in acting in some salvific way... God provides it ALL.
Hoss
**There are 2500 documented errors of fact in the bible.**
Isn’t that sort of amazing,....that all of the errors would end up in a nice sort of round number like ‘2,500’?
(I’m wondering why you post such opinions on a religion forum, since, imo, you seem to show no faith in God)
Cheerio!
Not sure what your point is, since you gave an example of NON-literalism, which is my point about the Bible.
As for re-writing the Bible, isn't that what every commentary does? I mean, since all of the commentators always agree with each other, right?
I take the word ‘father’ to mean the originator of anything whether it be visible or invisible.
Commentaries? The Bible does a marvelous job of commenting on itself. That’s why I haven’t bought a commentary in over 32 years of living for God.
Then how do you take the word "mother"?
Commentaries? The Bible does a marvelous job of commenting on itself. That’s why I haven’t bought a commentary in over 32 years of living for God.
Then you need to tell everyone of your discoveries - especially the Catholics and the, what, over a thousand Protestant denominations? Because I think - I'm not sure, but I think - the basis for their differences is, in fact, nothing other than different readings of the same Bible.
"God provides it ALL" is true, and fits in seamlessly with another truth: "God provides it ALL by His saving death on the Cross, the fruits of which come to us via the many means He has graciously provided, that is, many helps, instruments, channels of grace, and by the cooperation of the whole Body."
Do we need the cooperation of the whole Body? Of course we do:
1 Corinthians 12:21
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I do not need you.”
"How are we saved?" The Catholic Church goes nowhere for the answer to this question, except to Scripture.
How Christ teaches, through the Scriptures which were entrusted to us, that we are saved:
It's not so very complicated. All of the above could be summarized this way: "By union with Christ," as the branches are united to the True Vine; "By being incorporated into Christ" as members of His Body.
Philippians 2:12
"So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
How necessary it is to heed every line of the Scriptures listed above, because
2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness."
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