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To: Cvengr

“...Reliance upon those works for salvation is blasphemy ...”

Pelagianism has always been firmly condemned, officially at thh Council Of Carthage in 411, A.D.

St. Augustine’s proper (same as the Church’s position today) explanation of Original Sin precludes the idea that we can save ourselves ever through works.

St. Augustine (and the Church today) teaches this doctrine:

As a direct result of original sin, the human race is a “massa damnata” UTTERLY INCAPABLE OF SAVING ITSELF, but not without hope.

The Church still teaches this and has not changed.

With the necessity of original sin comes the necessity of baptism. Without baptism no one can be saved.

St. Augustine: Against 2 letters of the pelagians:

“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all our sins, whether of deed, word or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowlingly contracted.”

St. Augustine: Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants:

“According to Apostolic Tradition the Church of Christ holds inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord (eucharist)it is impossible for any man to attain either the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal”.

See Matthew 16:24-27

We are placed in the state of grace by baptism and must remain there by our deeds. Otherwise there would be no need for judgment and the bible makes clear that we will be judged.


20 posted on 06/15/2015 6:06:13 AM PDT by stonehouse01
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To: stonehouse01
We are placed in the state of grace by baptism and must remain there by our deeds. Otherwise there would be no need for judgment and the bible makes clear that we will be judged.

This is why the Roman Catholic Cult fails to have saving faith in Christ. The Cross was ALL JUDGMENT. For believers, we do not face judgment for eternal life, but better, the bema seat for the proper issuance of rewards.

32 posted on 06/15/2015 8:30:04 AM PDT by Cvengr ( Adversity in life & death is inevitable; Stress is optional through faith in Christ.)
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To: stonehouse01
You wrote, "We are placed in the state of grace by baptism and must remain there by our deeds. Otherwise there would be no need for judgment and the bible makes clear that we will be judged." You went to the effort to post that sentence, now let's look at it for what it asserts>

"We are placed in the state of Grace by baptism" ... Whose Grace is so powerful that it can choose you for Saving?

"... and must remain there by our deeds." So, this power to place you in Grace is only powerful enough to lift you to it but not powerful enough to keep you in it? Sorry, Jesus taught just the opposite. You are addressing justification, so lets see how that measures up to what Jesus taught:

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. [So, before we get to the meatier passages, God in Jesus tells men that if they accept Him, accept His Justification, but turn away from that Justification, that man is not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. James is cited by many works based religion folks to assert that therefore working good works aids in being saved. Not so, for Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be Born from Above. It is not possible for you or me to position ourselves 'above' to aid in this birthing. It is the miraculous WORK of God only. A man looking back from this birthing is not fit for the family. BUT WAIT, there's more.]

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [The passage is written so emphatically that we may safely assert that you are included in that 'no man' proclamation. Thus the one in the previous verse who puts his hand to the plow while looking back is seen as not actually putting his FAITH, his faithing *the verb form) in Jesus, so he is not included int he 'no man' because he would not come into God's hands. But why is this so emphatic to assert that once saved, once justified by God's Judicial Proclamation, 'No MAN' can defeat that soteriology? ... There's more!.]

Matthew 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [Justification is assured by the two hands of God holding the faither in His Promises. One looking back is not faithing in the Promises because he second guessed the Promises, that is what 'looking back' signifies. From such an one, no good deeds are possible, But why? why can't an unsaved person do good deeds worthy of merit in God's sight? ... Oh yes, there's more.]

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [ Do you recall what Jesus told the Youngman who came to him asking 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?' The Youngman addressed Jesus as 'Good Master' and Jesus replied, 'Why callest thou me good, there is only one who is good.' You see, only those works are good which have origin in the only one who is good. But wait! There's more yet.]

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. [In this New Covenant which God instituted and sealed with His Son's blood, once fore all, it is God in you who generates the 'good works' fit for the bema judgment seat. If any man present wood, hay, and stubble, the Shekinah Glory of God will burn it off leaving just that which God has Born from Above. 'If any man's works be burn ... but he shall be saved yet as by fire.' And now there is but one more to go ...]

John 6:28-29 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” [THAT is what God requires for Justification, that we believe/faithe in Him whom He has sent! And what is it to faithe (the verb form) in Him? Well, 'Faithful is He that calleth you to salvation for He will aslo do it. But many are called to this salvation but few are the chosen. Why? Because so few will let Him do it. Do what?... Be God in them. And when they do allow God to be God in them, they have a new want to, they do good works mete for their salvation, worthy of their salvation. These works are not wood, hay and stubble.. They're gold, silver, and precious stones. AND GOD is fashioning His New Jerusalem with these worthy things.]

Can you see why your assertion is off the mark? We remain in God's Grace because He declared us righteous due to our faithing in Jesus finished work. we cannot remain in God's Grace by some work we do before or after He declares us Righteous because of His Son. To believe you have anything to do with this miraculous work and declaration from God is to blaspheme the efficacy of His blood which seal the Covenant and is attributed to you when you believe in Him.

Our believing, our faithing, in Jesus is not the righteous work, the Work of His blood sprinkled on the mercy seat for all who will believe Him is the righteous work. That concludes Justification. THEN begins the work in raising up the new born in the Way that they should go.

The process is called sanctification by Protestants whom I have studied. It has an element of having the' works done as a newborn and older' weighed, not judged int he sense of Judging in a court. This weighing is done at the Bema Seat of Christ in Heaven. The event takes place in Heaven, so those having their 'works' weighed are already saved, already in Heaven.

Yet some will be saved as by fire, for they will have nothing that they let God do in them. 'He calleth, He will also do it.' Those who are IN HEAVEN yet are without worthy works are the ones who did not let God be God behaving IN THEM. They thought they could drink his blood and constantly confess something already dealt with and put away at the Mercy Seat. They tried to work themselves into worthiness. Such will be saved yet as by fire. But FIRST, to even get to the Bema Seat, one must believe He is The Savior, and trust Him as sole proprietor of Justification for you.

42 posted on 06/15/2015 10:22:27 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: stonehouse01; All
One must read Augustine in context:

“If Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified? The apostle goes on to tell us how: What does scripture say? (that is, about how Abraham was justified). Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6). Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.” (Augustine, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 2-4.)

“When someone believes in him who justifies the impious, that faith is reckoned as justice to the believer, as David too declares that person blessed whom God has accepted and endowed with righteousness, independently of any righteous actions (Rom 4:5-6). What righteousness is this? The righteousness of faith, preceded by no good works, but with good works as its consequence.” (Augustine, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 6-7.)

"... the human will does not obtain grace by freedom, but obtains freedom by grace; when the feeling of delight has been imparted through. the same grace, the human will is formed to endure; it is strengthened with unconquerable fortitude; controlled by grace, it never will perish, but, if grace forsake it, it will straightway fall; by the Lord's free mercy it is converted to good, and once converted it perseveres in good; the direction of the human will toward good, and after direction its continuation in good, depend solely upon God's will, not upon any merit of man. Thus there is left to man such free will, if we please so to call it, as he elsewhere describes: that except through grace the will can neither be converted to God nor abide in God; and whatever it can do it is able to do only through grace. "(Augustine, Aurelius. Augustine's Writings on Grace and Free WIll (Kindle Locations 45-46). Monergism Books. Kindle Edition.)

Augustine was entirely a Monergist, and thus believed that salvation was entirely by grace, and even all our good works are wrought in us by God. With Grace no one can fall away, nor resist it, because salvation rests entirely upon the will of God, not on man and his will or works.

Augustine did indeed believe that Baptism and attending the Lord's Supper were necessary for salvation in a sense, but not in the sense of "earning" salvation, but as a common obligation that all those already saved must do and do already, and will be made to do by God, even daily. Nor does he understand the Lord's Supper in the same sense as the Papist, as he denies a Salvific work in the Eucharist, but puts the work of it in the faith of the believer already had even before eating:

“They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” For He had said to them, “Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life.” “What shall we do?” they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already. (Augustine, Tractate 25)

“If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, says Christ, and drink His blood, you have no life in you. John 6:53 This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share [communicandem] in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory [in memoria] of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us. Scripture says: If your enemy hungers, feed him; if he thirsts, give him drink; and this is beyond doubt a command to do a kindness. But in what follows, for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head, one would think a deed of malevolence was enjoined. Do not doubt, then, that the expression is figurative; and, while it is possible to interpret it in two ways, one pointing to the doing of an injury, the other to a display of superiority, let charity on the contrary call you back to benevolence, and interpret the coals of fire as the burning groans of penitence by which a man’s pride is cured who bewails that he has been the enemy of one who came to his assistance in distress. In the same way, when our Lord says, He who loves his life shall lose it, we are not to think that He forbids the prudence with which it is a man’s duty to care for his life, but that He says in a figurative sense, Let him lose his life— that is, let him destroy and lose that perverted and unnatural use which he now makes of his life, and through which his desires are fixed on temporal things so that he gives no heed to eternal. It is written: Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. The latter clause of this sentence seems to forbid benevolence; for it says, help not a sinner. Understand, therefore, that sinner is put figuratively for sin, so that it is his sin you are not to help.” (Augustine, Christian Doctrine, Ch. 16)

For Augustine, the point of the Eucharist was not to earn salvation, but to commune with the whole church, as the Lord's Supper, in fact, represented the entire church. When eating the bread and drinking the wine, it is our own selves who are being eaten:

“What you can see passes away, but the invisible reality signified does not pass away, but remains. Look, it’s received, it’s eaten, it’s consumed. Is the body of Christ consumed, is the Church of Christ consumed, are the members of Christ consumed? Perish the thought! Here they are being purified, there they will be crowned with the victor’s laurels. So what is signified will remain eternally, although the thing that signifies it seems to pass away. So receive the sacrament in such a way that you think about yourselves, that you retain unity in your hearts, that you always fix your hearts up above. Don’t let your hope be placed on earth, but in heaven. Let your faith be firm in God, let it be acceptable to God. Because what you don’t see now, but believe, you are going to see there, where you will have joy without end.” (Augustine, Ser. 227)

“How can bread be his body? And the cup, or what the cup contains, how can it be his blood? The reason these things, brothers and sisters, are called sacraments is that in them one thing is seen, another is to be understood. What can be seen has a bodily appearance, what is to be understood provides spiritual fruit. So if it’s you that are the body of Christ and its members, it’s the mystery meaning you that has been placed on the Lord’s table; what you receive is the mystery that means you.” (Augustine, Sermon 272)

Also notice that these statements are not compatible with Transubstantiation, which makes the bread and the whine the body and blood of Christ, and not only spiritually or figuratively.

104 posted on 06/15/2015 3:12:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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