Posted on 06/12/2015 3:29:33 PM PDT by NYer
“Nope. More men were chosen and made bishops. That’s Apostolic Succession.”
Except that no replacement Apostles procedure was commanded nor taught in Scripture.
The Apostles were a gift given as the foundation of the Church with Christ as the Cornerstone.
“I tend to think that today’s apostles are what we call missionaries “
I understand what you are saying, but church planters are missionaries. They are not Apostles.
“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:14
Heaven has 12 foundations. One for each of the 12 Apostles. It does not have an ever expanding number of foundations to cover an expanding number of Apostles.
That’s it partner. Done.
A major misunderstanding of the role of Scripture here. Acts is not prophesying but recording what the early church did of its own authority given to it by Jesus Christ.
Nowhere does God give the command for the creation of the threefold division of the apostolic office as bishop, presbyter and deacon. This is something that the early church did of its own authority given to it by Jesus. The New Testament only records this, it does not command it. This is a witness that the church indeed does posses an authority outside of Scripture, an authority that Scripture recognizes and records.
Yes.
Paul was Apostle to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews.
This claim to Apostolic succession seems to be self aggrandizing or meant to allow argument by authority.
“A major misunderstanding of the role of Scripture here. Acts is not prophesying but recording what the early church did of its own authority given to it by Jesus Christ.”
In one sense I agree with you Petrosius. Peter used a passage of Scripture that was not about Judas to justify replacing him. In another sense, I must disagree with your statement.
Were the Apostles commanded to replace him? No. Definitely not. This has given rise to much speculation over the millennia as to whether if was a bad decision by the 11 remaining Apostles. Many believe Paul, directly chosen by Christ (as was every Apostle) was the 12th replacement.
The answer is that we do not know the answer as to whether Peter and the others made a good decision... or if it was uncalled for.
It was also a time BEFORE the Holy Spirit came to indwell the Apostles and believers in Acts 2.
In this context, Acts records what they did. Peter explained why, based on the passage quoted.
Based on this understanding - and I give Peter the benefit of the doubt that he was likely thinking of Jesus’ words in Matthew:
“And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Peter knew there would be twelve thrones - one for each Apostle.
Was he right to do so? We will learn someday which “extra” Apostle is sitting on that throne and which Apostle’s name is written on the foundation in Heaven (see Revelation 21). Until then, all we know is what they did.
The interesting part of the passage is the criteria for an Apostle:
“Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us—
22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
It is important to note that not a single so-called Apostle today meets that criteria.
Still they did not want to make the decision themselves.
Not having the indwelling Spirit, they sought wisdom - not wanting to make the decision themselves with any supposed authority. They prayed and asked for guidance and then drew lots... leaving the decision to the Lord.
24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.
Best.
” Nowhere does God give the command for the creation of the threefold division of the apostolic office as bishop, presbyter and deacon. This is something that the early church did of its own authority given to it by Jesus. The New Testament only records this, it does not command it. This is a witness that the church indeed does posses an authority outside of Scripture, an authority that Scripture recognizes and records.
“
Again, we will disagree Petrosius.
The Apostle Paul, under the inspiration of Scripture, tells the Church to appoint elders and deacons and specifies the criteria for doing so.
You can say God doesn’t command it. Scripture is given by inspiration from God as men are moved by the Holy Spirit.
There is nothing to say the church took it on itself to do this.
Best.
I was speaking specifically of the division of the apostolic office into the three offices of bishop, presbyter and deacon, not of the selection of Matthias.
Under the inspiration of God, yes, not of the Scriptures. Nowhere in Scriptures is a command given to the Apostles to divide there office into the three of bishop, presbyter and deacon. This they did no their own authority.
You can say God doesn’t command it. Scripture is given by inspiration from God as men are moved by the Holy Spirit.
As I said before, there is not command in Scripture given to the Apostles. They did this exercising the authority given to them by Jesus.
There is nothing to say the church took it on itself to do this.
Except the record in the Scriptures that they did this by their own authority.
“Under the inspiration of God, yes, not of the Scriptures.”
ALL Scripture, including Paul’s writings, comes from direct inspiration from God. The commands are from God. The criteria are from God.
“As I said before, there is not command in Scripture given to the Apostles. They did this exercising the authority given to them by Jesus.”
No, they did it under the direct inspiration of God. There is no indication they just made it up and then God said, “Hey! Good idea! I like that, let’s record it as if I said it!”
There is nothing to say the church took it on itself to do this. It is an argument from silence, against the inspiration of Scripture directly from God.
Best.
Agreed, but Acts is recording the actions of the apostles. Those actions were inspired prior to being recorded in Scriptures.
No, they did it under the direct inspiration of God. There is no indication they just made it up and then God said, “Hey! Good idea! I like that, let’s record it as if I said it!”
No argument. But my point is that this inspiration occurred prior to being recorded in Scriptures. God continues to move the church.
There is nothing to say the church took it on itself to do this. It is an argument from silence, against the inspiration of Scripture directly from God.
I think you have what happened backwards. God inspired the Apostles to act. Afterwards, God inspired Luke to record these acts. The authority of these acts, however, existed prior to them being recorded in Scripture.
Those who teach in accord with the Apostles may rightly be considered their successors, because the Apostles teach in accord with the Truth. The Apostles are unique insofar as they witnessed with their own eyes and ears the Holy Son of God making atonement for the sin of the world and by the Holy Spirit wrote these things down, making known that the forgiveness of sins is indeed administered both to, and through, poor sinners, by the Gospel and Sacraments Christ has established on earth to the present day.
It is characteristic of the Church to demonstrate ecclesial oversight, and this oversight is most commonly manifest in various offices of degree. The world does not accept this because the world promotes self-autonomy. Often times in the Church oversight is abused, much as are political offices. This is a shame. Proper oversight, however, is in fact a way of corralling the idiosyncrasies and fallacies that will, forever in this life, infringe upon the Truth. That is why the Church has pastors, and Christians are admonished to test the spirits (and by that the Holy Spirit is not referring to good beer).
Exactly...There is no such thing as apostolic succession...It's anti-biblical...They claim their tradition doesn't clash with the scriptures but we prove it to be true on a regular basis...And right in the same context:
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
What could possibly be more clear than that???
You don't think Jesus instructed Paul on how to set up his church, eh???
You guys sometime make it tough to be polite...And what do you expect when you make false statements about the scriptures???
1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
THAT is not a confirmation, but a command...There are tons of those in the scriptures...
Titus 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
Please show where "the teaching" included the assumption of Mary and the requirement to believe it.
What is the scriptural evidence that only doctrine "commanded in scripture" is correct?
Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Please show where the apostles taught the assumption of Mary.
You do understand that, at the time that the apostles were preaching the gospel, that "the scriptures" meant the Old Testament only, and that their source for "the gospel" was oral tradition, don't you?
Jesus said unto him, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
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