Posted on 05/06/2015 3:22:31 PM PDT by RnMomof7
You're so right. I think when the power of the state began to be used to enforce the will of a centralized religious authority is when the separation from Biblical Christianity was completed.
It's sad how there is a never ending effort to rewrite history. Peter is always being proclaimed as the first pope/bishop of Rome. I don't doubt that he was crucified in Rome by Nero, but there is no evidence in Scripture of Peter residing in Rome and being "bishop" over this church.
In Luke we are told that Peter's apostolic activity takes place in Samaria (8:14), Lydda (9:32-35), Joppa (9:36-43) and Caesarea (ch. 10). Pg 29, From Apostles to Bishops by Francis Sullivan
Once the lies start they can never be denied. Examples like this make it easy to understand why the RCC has a three legged stool of tradition, magisterium and Scripture rather than Scripture Alone as the rule of their faith. They can always fall back on their unwritten tradition to support a lie.
Could we have the verse where it says Timothy ORDAINED Bishops?
The greek word can be read either as Bishop or overseer ...But there is no scripture indicating they were ORDAINED ... just as there is no priesthood in the NT church..
Christ ordained the apostles by breathing on them and giving them the power to forgive and bind sins.
The ecclestical gift to the church to excommunicate ....But lets say that Rome is right..where di Jesus ever say it was a "gift" they could pass on ?? Chapter and verse please ..
"Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop."
His Epistle to the Ephesians tells the Ephesians to follow their local bishop. The bishop is the center of the local church.
"For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp."
The elders and ministers (presbytery) of the local church are to work with the local bishop.
"For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the [manifested] will of the Father; as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds [of the earth], are so by the will of Jesus Christ."
All bishops are equal. Everyone submits to their local bishop. There is no hierarchy of bishops.
Additionally, St. Ignatius never mentions anything about a line of successors. He says to submit to your local bishop. Words that I take to heart and follow.
Matthew 28:18-20.
Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
When will they learn that the Bible is a fully Catholic book and Catholicism is fully Biblical?
The English word "priest" is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as "elder" or "presbyter." The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23). The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.
They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear--except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)--the word may rightly be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter."
Episcopos arises from two words, epi (over) and skopeo (to see), and it means literally "an overseer": We translate it as "bishop." The King James Version renders the office of overseer, episkopen, as "bishopric" (Acts 1:20). The role of the episcopos is not clearly defined in the New Testament, but by the beginning of the second century it had obtained a fixed meaning. There is early evidence of this refinement in ecclesiastical nomenclature in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), who wrote at length of the authority of bishops as distinct from presbyters and deacons (Epistle to the Magnesians 6:1, 13:1-2; Epistle to the Trallians 2:1-3; Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2).
The New Testament tendency to use episcopos and presbuteros interchangeably is similar to the contemporary Protestant use of the term "minister" to denote various offices, both ordained and unordained (senior minister, music minister, youth minister). Similarly, the term diakonos is rendered both as "deacon" and as "minister" in the Bible, yet in Protestant churches the office of deacon is clearly distinguished from and subordinate to the office of minister.
In Acts 20:17-38 the same men are called presbyteroi (v. 17) and episcopoi (v. 28). Presbuteroi is used in a technical sense to identify their office of ordained leadership. Episcopoi is used in a non-technical sense to describe the type of ministry they exercised. This is how the Revised Standard Version renders the verses: "And from Miletus he [Paul] . . . called for the elders [presbuteroi]of the church. And when they came to him, he said to them . . . 'Take heed to yourselves and all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians [episcopoi], to feed the church of the Lord.'"
In other passages it's clear that although men called presbuteroi ruled over individual congregations (parishes), the apostles ordained certain men, giving them authority over multiple congregations (dioceses), each with its own presbyters. These were endowed with the power to ordain additional presbyters as needed to shepherd the flock and carry on the work of the gospel. Titus and Timothy were two of those early episcopoi and clearly were above the office of presbuteros. They had the authority to select, ordain, and govern other presbyters, as is evidenced by Paul's instructions: "This is why I left you in Crete . . . that you might appoint elders in every town as I directed you" (Ti 1:5; cf. 1 Tm 5:17-22).
It's good that you're finally coming to see Catholic revisionist history for what it is.
There's hope for you yet.
You so silly. Just like the rest of the Mea scripturists.
No such thing as a Priest in the NT church ...you can play with words all you want ..but putting modern definitions on the Greek that God chose as the language of His scriptures ...is just that playing
To know what the Holy Spirit meant, you need a greek dictionary
the greek word for elder is different than the greek words for priest.. archiereus which translates into “High Priest” and hiereus which translates one that OFFERS SACRIFICES.
The role of the priesthood in scripture was to offer sacrifices.. That is what a priest does in scripture.. God set aside one tribe to be priests, they were not granted any land as God was their inheritance .
The greek have a couple words for priest
hiereus
1) a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites
a) referring to priests of Gentiles or the Jews,
2) metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ
and archiereus
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) chief priest, high priest
2) the high priests, these comprise in addition to one holding the high priestly office, both those who had previously discharged it and although disposed, continued to have great power in the State, as well as the members of the families from which high priest were created, provided that they had much influence in public affairs.
3) Used of Christ because by undergoing a bloody death he offered himself as an expiatory sacrifice to God, and has entered into the heavenly sanctuary where he continually intercedes on our behalf.
Neither role is given in scripture for the new church ..
Christ fulfilled the role of Priest on the cross.. there is no more sacrifice for sin
He is now our High Priest..
The word for elder is presbyteros here is the GREEK definition
1) elder, of age,
a) the elder of two people
b) advanced in life, an elder, a senior
1) forefathers
2) a term of rank or office
a) among the Jews
1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
Now the Holy Spirit knows the difference in the greek words.. there is no priesthood provided for in the NT church.
There was no priests in the new church.it was about 300 AD before the first priesthood appeared..
Greg Dues has written Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide (New London: Twenty Third Publications, 2007). On page 166 he states,
“Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions.”
“A clearly defined local leadership in the form of elders, or presbyteroi, became still more important when the original apostles and disciples of Jesus died. The chief elder in each community was often called the episkopos (Greek, ‘overseer’). In English this came to be translated as ‘bishop’ (Latin, episcopus). Ordinarily he presided over the community’s Eucharistic assembly.”
“When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice, the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title ‘priest’ (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist.”
Garry Wills, Professor of History Emeritus, Northwestern U.,
Pulitzer Prize Winner
author of WHY I AM A CATHOLIC, wrote the following in his
Best Seller WHAT JESUS MEANT page 81.
Funny how you all like to play the Greek card when you all think it supports Mea Scriptura.
Unnoticed by you is the fact that “Acts” is the only “book” that gives anything like a Chronological account the the early Church. So how is the failure to mention this relevant to what is above? The New Testament amounts to sources relating to the early Church. You can disputes how they are related to similar sources from later times, which have led to the writing of the history of the Church, which though they have not the privleged position of Holy Scripture, are as truly sources to be respected. But all together are like a small library, but still limited in scope. fragments. We have to take so much on faith, like Luther, who not really a revisionist. Revisionists are so much more inventors of fiction, because they think that science can raise the dead past when it can only unearth its bones.
Darn it!
I was told he had fingers!
I noticed, and was ENCOURAGED!!
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[b]—
18 things known from long ago.[c]
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. 33 After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. [34] [d] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.
An Example in a Recent Edition of This Rock Magazine
Early Church Evidence Refutes Real Presence
The Lord's Supper: solemn symbolism or corporeal flesh and blood?
The Conversion of a Catholic Priest
A Refresher on “Apostolic Succession"
Explaining the Heresy of Catholicism Grace vs> works
The Nature of Justifying Faith
Why These 66 Books?
Is There A Purgatory?
Should Christians Confess Sins to An Earthly Priest?
Salvation by Faith or Works?
How good do I have to be to go to heaven?
The religion of works-righteousness
Against Rome's Apostolic Succession Argument by Bullinger (Part 1)
The Late Development of the Bishop of Rome
How the fictional early papacy became real
Papacy built on pious fiction and forgery 2
Papacy built on pious fiction and forgery, part 1
The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura:Is It Really Biblical?
Rome's New and Novel Concept of Tradition
Is The Roman Catholic View of the Eucharist Supported by the Historical Evidence?
Is the Mass the Real Sacrifice of Christ?
Pagan Saints
Upon This Rock
How Christians Will Know They Can Join Hands With Rome
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