Posted on 04/17/2015 12:12:16 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Ive mentioned that Roman Catholicism is so onerous because it puts its hooks in you at various times in your life from baptism as a child, to first confession and first holy communion, then Confirmation as an early teen, then marriage, baptism of your own children, etc. Its a programmatic cycle.
There is another point at which Rome is prominent, and that is at death. As the Baby Boom generation continues to age and die, people will continue to be focused on this phase of life, either as people focused on the end of their own lives, or that of their aging parents.
Paul Moses, a journalism professor at Brooklyn College/CUNY, has written a piece for the Wall Street Journal this morning entitled A Liberal Catholic and Staying Put, which puts this in view.
Beginning the article with some comments from the atheistic Freedom From Religion Foundation, which urged discontented, liberal-minded Catholics to Summon your fortitude, and just go, he rejects this notion with the following comments:
To me, these invitations reflect a shallow view of the Catholic Church that reduces its complex journey to the points where it intersects with the liberal social agenda. Pope Francis pastoral approach has shown a more merciful, less judgmental face of the churchone that always existed but needed to be more prominent in the public arena.
After my father died last year, I realized that my instinctive resistance to these just go argumentsfrom the atheists, the secularists, the orthodox, the heterodox or anyone elseruns deep. It began when I observed how impressively the church was there for me in a moment of need (emphasis added).
Early on the morning after he died, I went to my father's parish, St. Peter's in lower Manhattan, to find out what to do to bury him. I found one of the priests in the sacristy after the early Mass. The Rev. Alex Joseph took my hands in his, spoke a beautiful prayer, told me of his own father's death years earlier and added, "Our fathers are always with us." I was much moved.
We decided to have my father's funeral in the Staten Island parish where he had worshiped for 25 years Bernard L. Moses, who died at 88, had loved Father Madigans homilies, and to hear [Father Madigan] speak at the funeral Mass was to understand why. My father had advanced up the ranks of the New York City Housing Authority to director of management. Citing his concern for tenants, Father Madigan used the traditional Catholic term corporal work of mercy to describe what my father did. It explained for me, in those difficult moments, why my father, who was well-schooled in Catholic social teachings, had passed up the opportunity for a more pleasant career in academia, or a more lucrative one managing private housing, to work in housing projects instead.
Few of us, I think, live daily on the edge of eternity in the conscious way that the Puritans did, and we lose out as a result. For the extraordinary vivacity, even hilarity (yes, hilarity; you will find it in the sources), with which the Puritans lived stemmed directly, I believe, from the unflinching, matter-of-fact realism with which they prepared themselves for death, so as always to be found, as it were, packed up and ready to go (emphasis added). Reckoning with death brought appreciation of each days continued life, and the knowledge that God would eventually decide, without consulting them, when their work on earth was done brought energy for the work itself while they were still being given time to get on with it (pg 14).
Dick Vomer:
The article is by a former Catholic who is by all accounts, based on my researching his blog, a salesman [maybe used car salesman???]. Regardless, he is just a self-anointed Protestant Pope with an internet blog. Again, unless someone can provide evidence to me, I don’t think he is a theologian by training or Protestant Pastor or Reverend via formal seminary training. Again, from best I can tell, he states his professional job is in some sort of sales.
Aquinas:
You beat me too it. I was going to link the Martyrdom of Saint Polycarp, Bishop, and disciple of the Apostle Saint John. This is as close to Apostolic times as you can get, as Saint John the Apostle would have been alive within recent memory of many of Saint [Bishop] Polycarp’s parishoners
Alex, I pinged you here as earlier you had a quote regarding relics, and an article questioning whether the relics discussed in the article were actually canonized saints. If the relics were martyr’s during Roman persecutions in the period prior to Theodosius making Catholicism-Christianity the state religion in circa 380, then by definition, they would be recognized as saints without the strict formal canonization process that we think of today.
http://newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm
caww:
There body is still there. The soul is not there. But, at the end of time, all the early Creeds affirm the orthodox doctrine of the “resurrection of the body/dead”, which of course goes right against one of the dominate early heresies, Gnosticism.
So honoring the dead is not a heresy, in fact, it actually affirms the reality of the Incarnation of Christ that his death and resurrection overcame sin and death and those who die in communion with Christ will share in his resurrection, entirely, the whole person [Soul and Body]. What that body will look like in heaven, nobody knows, but as the Apostle John says, we will look like him [1 John 3:2] Numerous other passages affirm a resurrection of the body [2 Peter 1:4. Phillipians 3:20-21; 2 Cor 3:18].
Wouldn't matter if they were homogenized or canonized....they remain dead corpses no matter how you dress them up or don't dress them.
caww:
Well they are dead, but they are dead saints. So Polycarp’s Martyred bones were visible reminders of someone who persevered even in the face of death.
So we agree, they are dead from our human perspective, but in reality, they are more alive than us. That is where we part. Catholics see those martyred as completely part of the Communion of Saints [affirmed in Apostles Creed]. You and your tradition does not. Fair enough.
**several Protestant countries became communist...East Germany and Czechoslovakia come to mind.**
IIRC Germany and Czechoslovakia “became” Communist when they were taken over a larger nation, one that was Orthodox before it became atheistic and Communist. Remember the USSR?
We are not our bodies...our soul and spirit are simply housed in the flesh while we are here.
“We have this treasure in earthen vessels” (2 Corinthians 4:7)
If they are Christians they are with Him. Their corpse remains here...it’s “earthly”... Dust to dust sort of thing because it is dead.
That would be way to simple for the Catholic mindset.
caw:
Here is a nice summary of Relics, as even the Protestant Church Historian notes, no Church Doctor or Father ever rejected it and there are some passages in the scriptures that relics of some sort were associated with Miracles indicating that God does work through matter to bring about spiritual things. This of course is not surprising to any Catholic or Orthodox Christian worth his or her salt, for this follows logically from the reality of the Incarnation of Christ.
So I will take Saint Polycarp, Jerome, Augustine, etc as evidence supporting my view, you can take all the Free Republic Protestant self anointed prophets and theologians and other internet self anointed theologians to support your view. Again, fair enough.
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/things/relics.htm
caw:
I am going to ask you a very specific question.
Do you believe in the Resurrection of the Body? Yes or No
Russia became communist because of incompetent leadership on the part of the Czar and the Duma (something that still goes on today), the unbelievable poverty and the true exploitation of the masses. That the communists exploited them as well as practicing genocide is another matter.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; 43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
Catholics choose to venerate the dishonoured body.
1) pray to mom and dad
2) expect them to be able to do anything for me
3) don't kneel before their graves
So in short, this Christian does not worship the departed ones who have gone on before us.
As Peter told Cornelius when Cornelius had fallen at his feet to worship him, "Stand up, for I too am just a man." (Acts 10:25-26 NASB)
Let’s stay on track.
The post I was responding to was about East Germany and Czechoslovakia, Protestant nations, going Commie.
They didn’t go Commie, now did they?
Can you clear up what you wrote? I don’t understand it. East Germany was certainly a communist country. I don’t think any religion had anything to do with countries being taken over by madmen and thugs. Our nation has always been a Protestant nation - and look what’s happening to it.
eh, sparklite, you kinda went quite there - no mindless retort at the ready?
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