Posted on 03/27/2015 2:24:37 PM PDT by NYer
You focus, newfreep. How in any way was what I posted "leftist rambling"?
I follow the science and report the science. Therefore, I am providing you the current state of the science regarding the image on the Shroud. This particular piece of data has been known for years.
The image itself is NOT 3D it is 2D. . . it required computerized extraction of the data. You cannot see a 3D image unless it is massaged by a VP-8 analog image analyzer. If you think that is leftist rambling you are delusional.
I described to you the exact nature of the image. YOU somehow convert that into LEFTIST rambling? Ask anyone here. I have more accurate information on the science and scholarship on the Shroud than anyone on FreeRepublic except perhaps Shroudie. The scientists agree with me.
No, it may not.
It is far from being yet established that there was any real "science" at all.
We have the word of the one researcher, who though otherwise perhaps clinically qualified, is alleged to have had but one other individual assisting himself, with there having been no other tests conducted either before or since...
It doesn't help one bit that the alleged finding was published in Italian, and has yet to be made accessible in English --- which is the language of science, in this day and age.
Then there is the mysterious "WHO" document said to exist -- and which is quoted from in part --- BUT NEVER shown in what context the quote comes from, etc. The more I dig into this, the further from being conviced I become skeptical...and I'm one of those that ten thousand horses couldn't drag me to deny the truth of Scripture, and that the one we know of in the English language as Jesus Christ was indeed who the New Testament indicates He said He was, and who the disciples said He was (and still is) for flesh and blood (alone) did not reveal it to me...or else I would have no reason to not doubt.
The man who published the alleged results --- is part of a Vatican-controlled commission which "investigates" such alleged miracles -- correct? Or he at least was, if he is still alive...
That leaves him, in this regard at least, to be something else OTHER than a neutral, thus truly "scientific" observer.
Whatever it is -- do not use that word "science" and/or "proof" in regards to this Lanciano "thing".
If it be such a sure thing -- then why has such claimed to be so extensive work not been replicated?
Surely something along lines of a fairly unobtrusive "blood" sampling using pipettes -- sealed by a variety of witnesses -- then perhaps sent to a variety of labs for testing could be done?
It would not take much of the substance, whatever it is, to replicate parts of the prior alleged tests. Doing so would remove all doubts, and fairly well rock the world.
But no, the Vatican is always all-controlling, and tweaks and manipulates, leaving those whom would have doubts concerning these type of claims have those doubts all but entirely confirmed. It is as if "they" would prefer unbelievers to become even more hostile, by design.
The Lord Himself, once one encounters His Spirit, is so strikingly different than those whom claim He left them in charge, it leaves those whom have encountered Him elsewhere, other than within the narrow confines of Roman Catholicism, with the conclusion that the RCC is up to it's old tricks, with fakes and frauds on the right and the left, which when challenged are found covered up with dusty layers of misdirection and spurious, difficult to investigate claims.
It happens at seemingly each and every juncture wherein there arises that which comes into conflict with the Scriptures themselves, once those are well enough understood in the contexts in which they arose (and what the words would have meant to those to whom they were sent...).
It matters little to nothing that there are many who believe it truly is the blood of Christ --- since we have the word of but one researcher, and himself a believing Roman Catholic, and the testing conducted in Italy, under the guidance of the RCC -- with no outsiders there to establish chain-of-custody for the material themselves, etc.
A decent lawyer could get the so-called evidence you've listed thrown out of most any court in the United States due to the inherent conflicts of interest, and the chain of custody problem. You didn't even bother to give us a link to whatever Roman Catholic fan-boiy webpage you copied the info from.
WHat's up with that? It's like --- wherever anyone looks into this issue, the primary documentation has been made to be as difficult as possible to ferret out, and that is seemingly continued by the "true believers' whom breathlessly repeat what is found on other web pages -- but never show the source(s). Then, when one digs far enough to go after the primary documents -- they are not available other than by way of "image" from a book, or else in a pdf behind a PubMed paywall --- with all of that still Italian, and not easily translatable into English -- thus open for examination.
That the info is getting old, and the researcher unreachable --- and there is no record available for other alleged commentary associated with this (including possible questions and or possible points of order raised by those within the scientific community) makes it appear as if there truly is something to hide --- even as what is desired by many to be believed, is put forward.
That kind of methodology is not science, although it is reminiscent of the Rossi fraud type of "science".
What is it with those eye-talians anyway? The entire nation seems more than half-full of crooks, criminals and frauds. The home of the famiglia... I feel sorry for whatever otherwise decent folks live there and have had to put up with the ongoing and varied corruptions for who knows how long now, perhaps since the Empire of Rome....
Speaking of chain-of custody, although this alleged miracle is said to date back into, what is it -- the 9th century, as a few of the "true believer" Roman Catholic pages would have it? -- but --- actual history dating back that far is impossible to establish in anything resembling scholarly documentary fashion, with the oldest extant writings (or even mention) dating back only as far as the late Middle Ages. Isn't that so? If not -- prove otherwise, or this point I raise will stand.
There are (or once were?) a few other instances of similar miraculous "Eucharist" blood and/or flesh crop up in the same time frame (a matter a 20-30 years or so) in other areas nearby to this Lanciano (or Laniciano as it sometimes spelled).
That these first find their way into the records near simultaneously --- at just the time in European history when alchemists were at their busiest in experimentation, leaves the door wide open to needing conclude that something alone those lines was the true origins, being that the RCC has seeming a thousand ways to make their own resistance to there being anything approaching openly verifiable testing done. If it's not one excuse or set of reasons -- it's 3 others.
Whatever it is, until there is actual testing done which is verifiable by outside & neutral sources --- don't call it science.
So far, what has transpired, cheapens the name of science, while doing injury to the name of Jesus, also.
Can you establish an proof of chain-of-custody for what was allegedly examined?
It get's even worse when one looks into the back-story for this Lanciano (or Laniciano) "Eucharist miracle" said to date to the 9th century or so...for other than claims that it goes that far back, there are no actual evidences it exited until much later. OR -- feel free to prove otherwise, but bring the proof HERE, in English, with links to whatever sources you are using.
The entire affair smacks of just another in a long line of frauds perpetrated by the RCC.
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who doubt, no proof is sufficient.
Thanks for clarifying the Shroud's image IS truly 3D...yet you deny what you just stated.
Sheesh...perhaps kneeling at the Tim Cook homo sucking idol has caused you to lose any remaining cognitive ability.
There has been no confirmation whatsoever, with the initial info coming from conditions which can be termed "hinky".
As far as the Shroud info goes --- if the one Shroud which has remained is what it is purported by some to be, from among a few or more which once existed and were all claimed to be the burial shroud of Christ, then by default that would prove that all but the one were and had been frauds --- all along.
That aspect additionally supports some of my own own contentions which I presented to you in regards to there having long been frauds and pretenders among that which looked upon as "relic".
Meanwhile, if all you have to say is along the lines of what you just did -- then spare me any further of that sort of pathetic noise. You had been saying "science", which is supposed to stand as irrefutable fact -- and was the way which you had presented it.
But now, the tune has suddenly changed and has included unstated but possibly intended to be implied accusation(?) if so -- the you can go stuff that accusation.
I can't stand that sort of cop-out response (with a side of insult?) not when there are multiple issues at hand...
Was that necessary?
Things of that sort have no place among the subject matter of this thread, I think.
Great read. BTW, just read this mystery book titled “The Skeleton Key” - fictional story regarding the Shroud. At the end in the notes by the author he tries to prove it a fake. Didn’t do a very good job.
Almost like the Shroud image was the initial “model” for paintings of Christ that were then copied over and over again for centuries.
Dear friend, you are not new to FR. Over the years, there have been multiple postings on Eucharistic Miracles. Many of these occurred long before the development of scientific means for testing. In more recent times, some of these have been subjected to scientific research to either confirm or negate the article. The earliest one dates as far back as the Dessert Fathers.
In more contemporary times, there was a Eucharistic Miracle in Buenos Aires.
On October 5, 1999, in the presence of the Cardinal’s representatives, Dr. Castanon took a sample of the bloody fragment and sent it to New York for analysis. Since he did not wish to prejudice the study, he purposely did not inform the team of scientists of its provenance. One of these scientists was Dr. Frederic Zugiba, the well-known cardiologist and forensic pathologist. He determined that the analyzed substance was real flesh and blood containing human DNA. Zugiba testified that, “the analyzed material is a fragment of the heart muscle found in the wall of the left ventricle close to the valves. This muscle is responsible for the contraction of the heart. It should be borne in mind that the left cardiac ventricle pumps blood to all parts of the body. The heart muscle is in an inflammatory condition and contains a large number of white blood cells. This indicates that the heart was alive at the time the sample was taken. It is my contention that the heart was alive, since white blood cells die outside a living organism. They require a living organism to sustain them. Thus, their presence indicates that the heart was alive when the sample was taken. What is more, these white blood cells had penetrated the tissue, which further indicates that the heart had been under severe stress, as if the owner had been beaten severely about the chest.” source
Faith, of course, should not be based on miracles alone. God, though, recognizes our weakened nature and occasionally provides such a miracle to grab our attention. Take, for example, Dr. Eben Alexander. He is a neurosurgeon who did not believe in the afterlife or the existence of souls. All that changed one night when he was stricken with an illness that few survive. You can read the account here.
I can't stand that sort of cop-out response (with a side of insult?) not when there are multiple issues at hand...
No insult .. simply acknowledging reality. Some people believe on faith; others require scientific facts and, even then, still doubt. That is human nature.
Wishing you a Blessed Palm Sunday.
The Shroud is not by any definition truly 3D. . . no scientist claims such. It inexplicably contains Three dimensional data, but the Shroud itself is NOT Three Dimensional and your claim that it is 3D, is scientifically FALSE. There are means in which the 3D data can be extracted from the Shroud which shows that it is unique among images from the past because no other images from the past exhibit such data encoded into them.
You are truly allowing your anti-Apple hatred to distort everything you post and anywhere you post. . . and to allow it to spill over into hatred of me. You are DELUDED and Posting insane claims about a fellow freezer. GIVE IT A REST! You have absolutely NO EVIDENCE THAT I am "kneeling at the Tim Cook homo sucking idol" you idiotic, anti-Apple TROLL! You are beyond sick.
I appreciate your posts and your sharing your expertise with us.
Thanks for the ping!
That’s got to be it. I don’t think there is anymore.
Thanks for the ping!
On a related note, I had the privilege of visiting the Shroud of Turin Expo here in San Antonio. It is still in town for a few more weeks before moving on, if anyone has a chance to go. I strongly encourage viewing the exhibit, as it lays out all of the evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud. My wife was all but in tears afterward.
MD
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