Posted on 02/23/2015 5:15:08 AM PST by Gamecock
Full Title: Do We Deserve Heaven? Thinking that I deserve heaven is a sure sign I have no understanding of the gospel.
Religious people are always profoundly disturbed when they discover that they are not, and never have been, true Christians. Does all of their religion count for nothing? Those hours in church, hours spent doing good things, hours involved in religious activity—do they not count for something in the presence of God? Do they not enable me to say: “Look at what I have done. Don’t I deserve heaven?”
Sadly, thinking that I deserve heaven is a sure sign I have no understanding of the gospel.
Jesus unmasked the terrible truth about His contemporaries. They resisted His teaching and refused to receive His Word because they were sinners—and slaves to sin.
Some years ago, the British media reported that a Presbyterian denomination had pulled fifty thousand printed copies of an edition of its monthly magazine. The report indicated that the author of an article had referred to a prominent member of the British royal family as a “miserable sinner.”
Intriguingly, the member of the royal family, as a member of the Church of England, must have regularly used the words of the Anglican prayer book’s “Prayer of General Confession,” which includes a request for the forgiveness of the sins of “miserable offenders.” Why, then, were the magazines pulled? The official comment: “We don’t want to give the impression that the doctrines of the Christian faith cause people emotional trauma.”
But sometimes the doctrines of the Christian faith do exactly that—and necessarily so.
Or should we say instead: “How cruel Jesus was to these poor Jews! Fancy Jesus speaking to them in this way!”?
Jesus did say, “You are miserable sinners.” He unmasked sinners and drove His point home: “You have no room for my word” (John 8:37, NIV). They had heard, but resisted it. Later, He described the result: “Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say” (John 8:43, NIV).
Jesus had already patiently explained this to Nicodemus: “Unless God’s Spirit opens your eyes, you cannot see the kingdom of God. Unless God sets you free from the bondage of sin, you will never enter the kingdom of God” (see John 3:3,5). “The truth is,” Jesus said later, “you do not hear what I am saying because you are not really the children of God” (see John 8:41, 44). They were, to use Paul’s language, spiritually “dead” (Eph. 2:1).
Some time ago, while relaxing on vacation on a wonderful summer day in the Scottish Highlands, I sat outside enjoying a morning coffee. A few feet away I saw a beautiful little red robin. I admired its feathers, its lovely red breast, its sharp and clean beak, its simple beauty. I found myself instinctively talking to it. But there was no response, no movement. Everything was intact, but little robin red-breast was dead. The most skilled veterinarian in the world could do absolutely nothing for him.
So are we, spiritually. Despite appearances, in my natural state I am dead toward God. There is no spiritual life in me.
Only when I see this will I begin to see why God’s grace is surprising and amazing. For it is to spiritually dead people that the grace of God comes to give life and release.
Decision is made way above my feeble understanding of justice.
Understood, but it has to be Justice that those departed Asians end up in the lake of fire, since they didn't believe in Jesus and God set the penalty. Agreed?
I don't see how that answers the question of how imperfection can come from perfection. There are lots of robots in the world and non of them are perfect.
Faith saves us from sin.
They know they are sinning and do/did so anyway:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
As crazy as it may seem, God (as I understand him), gave us free will to do as we please. The result of this is that we are also free to suffer or enjoy the consequences of our choices. Yes, it has made the world an incredibly imperfect place, but (as I believe it as a Christian) God has given us an opportunity to get things right with him in spite of the present imperfection.
History is full of examples of where innocents were sacrificed to atone for sin. In the story of Adam and Eve, innocent animals were killed to cover their nakedness. In the Old Testament, the sacrificial system was emplaced to give the Jews a way to 'get right' with God. Many other religions and cultures also used sacrifices to appease their gods, so this isn't just a Jewish/Christian 'thing.'
God doesn't want robots; he (just like us) wants the people around him to want to be 'right with him.' Had he made us and everything around us perfect, then what would have been the point of creating anything?
Asking again. It has to be Justice that those departed Asians end up in the lake of fire, since they didn’t believe in Jesus, and God set the penalty. Do you agree?
Amen!
**It has to be Justice that those departed Asians end up in the lake of fire, since they didn’t believe in Jesus**
Again, it was their life of sin that condemned them. Not lack of belief.
But let’s talk about you. You know that the claim is out there that at the time of your death justice delivered on you. With Jesus you will have mercy. What have you done with that bit of information?
And by the way, there are still people out there that have not heard the good news. Are you as concerned with those folks as you are with people who have already died? If you are really worried about their eternal destiny maybe you should go and find them and preach the good news instead of trying to play gottcha on the internet.
Just sayin’.
The premise is in error. You (that is you) would need complete knowledge on the spiritual state of each Asian you use in your example. You don't know if the people you say died without the gospel in fact did not hear and did not believe. That would be putting you as the judge. But since you, nor I nor any other mortal have full knowledge of a generic "Asian" people your point is futile. For God is sovereign and His Salvation is His own and is sovereign.
I will say the "Asian example" is absurd today as tens of millions of Chinese and other Asians proclaim Christ as their Lord and Savior.
So do you agree that it has to be Justice that those departed Asians end up in the lake of fire forever... 'yes' or 'no'? You keep dodging that simple question.
But let’s talk about you.
Let's not.
Imperfection comes from choice - the choice to be outside of God’s will. When Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, they chose imperfection.
Using that logic you could blame Ford Pintos for exploding in rear end collisions.
I have answer you question quite clearly.
Sinners who die receive justice.
Christians who die receive mercy.
Race has nothing to do with it.
False analogy. Try again.
As for those who have not heard of Jesus, I do not know. What God will do on the day of judgement is for God alone to know. I have faith that God who is perfect will do right on judgement day. That is enough for me.
As for torment, since God is all that is good, and hell is separation from God, it stands to reason that hell is the place without any good. No love, no hope, no peace, no joy, ... left only with regret, loss, knowing what they missed out on by their choices ... that sounds like torment to me. The agony of the heart is far more painful than of the body.
And yes, I do believe that is the future for those that do not accept God’s mercy through Jesus.
Being without blame is not the same as sinless. If one is without blame, there is no LAW against which that person can be blamed. But that is not the same as sinless. We all carry the sin of Adam.
“For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
13 whole comments before the gratuitous anti-Catholic post. Completely unrelated to the OP. Where are the Arminians to refute the Calvinist doctrine which IS the thrust of the OP?
Let's have something different that the same old same old.
Clue: If you believe that accepting Jesus as personal Savior is how salvation is effected, then you are an Arminian. As I understand it, Calvinists do not believe that.
That doesn't negate the question. How does pefection give rise to imperfection?
Refresh my memory then, was your answer 'yes' or 'no'?
Sinners who die receive justice.
Christians who die receive mercy.
So you are saying those departed Asians will receive Justice in the lake of fire. Right?
Race has nothing to do with it.
Didn't say it did. It just happens to be a fact that Christianity among Asians who lived and died over the last 2,000 years was very rare.
The analogy works fine as long as you want the things created to take the blame for the parameters of their creation. Still no answer. Here is the question again; How does perfection give rise to imperfection?
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