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The Late Development of the Bishop of Rome
Beggars All ^
| October 08, 2010
| Matthew Schultz
Posted on 02/16/2015 8:49:55 AM PST by RnMomof7
Friday, October 08, 2010
The Late Development of the Bishop of Rome
John Bugay has posted on
Hermas and the structure of the early Roman church
before. I don't have anything original to add to that discussion.
However, I'd like to provide some corroboration by Roman Catholic scholars Raymond Brown and John Meier, whose book received both the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur (bold mine):
There is no doubt that it [The Shepherd of Hermas] was written at Rome (Vis. 1.1.1.; 2.1.1; 4.1.2); and the suggestion that Clement would send it abroad (Vis. 2.4.3) may mean that Hermas' revelations had church status in Rome...[characterizing the letter] Bernard ("Shepherd" 34-35) may be closer to the mark: "Thus I Clement, like Hermas, is a Christian work which leans heavily on late-Jewish and early Jewish-Christian tradition and apologetics, and this raises the question as to the composition of the Roman Church in the late first and early second centuries. There would appear to be grounds for thinking that the influence of the Jewish-Christian element in the Church remained strong into the second century." I would rephrase slightly, for I think of Rome as containing a dominant Jewish/Gentile Christianity that had strong loyalties to Jerusalem and the Jewish tradition. The author of Hermas may have been ethnically a pure Gentile, but he would be representative of that continuing strain of Christianity. The indication that there was still a church structure of presbyter-bishops and deacons433 indicates how conservative the Roman church was.1
The footnote (#433) referenced above reads (bold mine):
433. See p. 163 above. All the references to presbyters and bishops are in the sections that some would judge chronologically early. However, if the men sitting on the bench in Man. 11.1 are presbyters, then the structure of presbyter-bishops lasted into the 140s. Telfer, Office 61, however, thinks it unquestionable that by the time Hermas was finished there was a single-bishop at Rome.2
Page 163 (and the previous page) reveals the following discussion (bold mine):
An older generation of Roman Catholic scholars assumed that the single-bishop practice was already in place in Rome in the 90s or earlier; and they opined that, as fourth pope (third from Peter), Clement was exercising the primacy of the bishop of Rome in giving directions to the church of Corinth. The failure of Clement to use his own name or speak personally should have called that theory into question from the start, were there not other decisive evidence against it. As the ecumenical book Peter in the New Testament (done by Roman Catholics and Protestants together) affirmed, the connection between a Petrine function in the first century and a fully developed Roman papacy required several centuries of development, so that it is anachronistic to think of the early Roman church leaders functioning as later popes (see footnote 275 above). Moreover, the Roman episcopal list shows confusion...All of this can be explained if we recognize that the threefold order of single-bishop, with subordinate presbyters and deacons, was not in place at Rome at the end of the first century; rather the twofold order of presbyter-bishops and deacons, attested a decade before in I Peter 5:1-5, was still operative. Indeed, the signal failure of Ignatius (ca. 110) to mention the single-bishop in his letter to the Romans (a very prominent theme in his other letters) and the usage of Hermas, which speaks of plural presbyters (Vis. 2.4.2) and bishops (Sim. 9.27.2), make it likely that the single-bishop structure did not come to Rome till ca. 140-150.3
Some observations:
1. This work received both the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur. It therefore carries more general weight than those whose only qualifications as Catholic apologists are a keyboard and an internet connection.
2. Brown and Meier are established Catholic scholars. They therefore carry more weight than otherwise unknown lay-Catholic apologists on the subject.
3. Brown and Meier state their position in direct contrast to previous generations of Roman Catholic scholars. Even on something as important as the nature of the church government of Rome, with particular application to the power and authority of the bishop(s) there, Catholic scholarship has not been consistent. This observation plays into a variety of problems with Roman Catholicism, some of which are fairly obvious.
4. There are lay-Catholic apologists who object to the term "Roman Catholic." This, however, is how Brown and Meier both refer to themselves and previous generations of scholars within their own denomination. If it's acceptable for Brown and Meier, and morally consistent with Catholicism proper (via the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur), it should be acceptable to lay-Catholic internet apologists.
____________
1. Antioch and Rome: New Testament Cradles of Catholic Christianity (Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 1983, 2004), 203-204.
2. Ibid., 204.
3. Ibid., 162-163.
TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: catholicism; papacy; protvsrc; rome
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1
posted on
02/16/2015 8:49:56 AM PST
by
RnMomof7
To: Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; HossB86; Iscool; ...
A little historical follow up
2
posted on
02/16/2015 8:50:56 AM PST
by
RnMomof7
To: RnMomof7
3
posted on
02/16/2015 8:54:42 AM PST
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: RnMomof7
To: RnMomof7
The Liber Pontificalis says quite explicitly that Peter ordained three bishops: Linus, Cletus, and Clement. The presumption is that they served concurrently, not consecutively.
https://archive.org/stream/bookofpopesliber00loom#page/4/mode/2up
Seems to jive with Hermas, no? And possibly Clement’s “we”? (Linus and Cletus are thought to have been dead already when 1 Clement was penned).
5
posted on
02/16/2015 9:06:33 AM PST
by
Claud
To: RnMomof7
Nihil Obstat and an imprimatur mean only that the work was submitted to a bishop before publishing to ascertain that it did not contain heresy; it does mean that it represents an official statement of the Catholic version of history. That said, I’m not sure what you think is scandalous, here. A bishop (episcopus) oversees a metropolis; his authority is delegated to various pastors (presbyterus) because there are multiple parishes (ekklesiae) in a given see (metropolis). In the first century, with so few missions (ekklesiae), it was quite normal for a see and a parish to be one and the same thing, hence there was little practical division between presbyter and episcopus, other than a presbyter could be appointed by a single episcopus, rather than a minimum of three. I don’t detect any refutation of Catholic doctrine in what you seem to have surmised is a gotcha moment here. The bishop who granted a notice of Nihil Obstat certainly didn’t detect one. If you’re implying that the papal authority of Sts. Cletus, Clement and Linus is an invention of Catholic bloggers, that’s just plain absurd.
Finally, the acquiescence to the popular usage of “Roman Catholic” bears little on the objection that the modifier “Roman” is a Protestant epithet. In fact, given the emergence of fraudulent uses of the word “Catholic,” (Old Catholic Church, etc.), it’s probably a wise if unfortunate inclusion when discussing theology or identifying parishes as being in union with the pope.
6
posted on
02/16/2015 9:16:45 AM PST
by
dangus
To: Servant of the Cross
Good song. I hope you enjoy this as well...God Bless!
When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word, What a glory He sheds on our way! While we do His good will, He abides with us still, And with all who will trust and obey. Refrain: Trust and obey, for theres no other way To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey. Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies, But His smile quickly drives it away; Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear, Can abide while we trust and obey. Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share, But our toil He doth richly repay; Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross, But is blessed if we trust and obey. But we never can prove the delights of His love Until all on the altar we lay; For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows, Are for them who will trust and obey. Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet, Or well walk by His side in the way; What He says we will do, where He sends we will go; Never fear, only trust and obey.
7
posted on
02/16/2015 9:16:57 AM PST
by
redleghunter
(He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
To: RnMomof7
Fellow Catholics: don't let you hearts be troubled.
Since Luther, these attempts to undermine the TRUE HISTORICAL RECORD have never stopped.
There are answers to everything they raise - this is the beauty of TRUTH being our hallmark and polestar.
They have bits and pieces, but only in the CATHOLIC CHURCH is there the FULLNESS OF THE FAITH!
8
posted on
02/16/2015 9:21:22 AM PST
by
jobim
(.)
To: RnMomof7
By the way, were you not Catholic long enough to have heard of auxiliary bishops?
There are currently five in the Archdiocese of NY: http://archny.org/our-bishops.
There are currently seven in Rome:
http://www.vicariatusurbis.org/?page_id=379
So I’m not sure what Mr. Schultz thinks he’s proving, but there being three bishops of Rome concurrently is no skin off my nose. The old Encyclopedia even says flat out the custom is Apostolic:
“They come down to us from Apostolic times; thus Linus and Cletus were vicars, or auxiliaries, to St. Peter at Rome; Ammianus [Anianus], to St. Mark of Alexandria; Alexander, to Narcissus (aged 116 years) of Jerusalem; St. Gregory the Theologian, auxiliary in pontificals to St. Gregory, Bishop of Nazianzus; St. Augustine, coadjutor of Valerius of Hippo;”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02145b.htm
9
posted on
02/16/2015 9:24:00 AM PST
by
Claud
To: dangus
Finally, the acquiescence to the popular usage of Roman Catholic bears little on the objection that the modifier Roman is a Protestant epithet. In fact, given the emergence of fraudulent uses of the word Catholic, (Old Catholic Church, etc.), its probably a wise if unfortunate inclusion when discussing theology or identifying parishes as being in union with the pope.
So it's not just a Protestant epithet but also a way to distinguish between, for example, SSPX?
10
posted on
02/16/2015 9:32:03 AM PST
by
redleghunter
(He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
To: redleghunter
11
posted on
02/16/2015 9:57:34 AM PST
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: Salvation
I don’t see SSPX on chart.
12
posted on
02/16/2015 10:15:46 AM PST
by
redleghunter
(He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
To: dangus
Also, Re: “Roman” Catholic.
Some Catholic authors include the word “Roman” to distinguish between the Western church and various Eastern churches which recognize the authority of the papacy. This is incorrect usage, however. Even though the Western church no longer uses the Latin language, the correct term is “Latin.” The use of the term “Roman” for the Latin Rite falsely implies that the Eastern patriarchates are not in full union with Rome.
Lastly, the Eastern Orthodox occasionally use the term “Catholic” to the entirety of all Orthodox churches, as opposed to specific national churches (e.g., the “Orthodox Catholic Church” as opposed to the “Russian Orthodox Church.”) Thus, out of sensitivity, some Catholic authors fumblingly refer to “Roman Catholic” as opposed to “Eastern Catholic,” but this creates undue confusion with regards to the Eastern churches in union with Rome.
13
posted on
02/16/2015 10:26:05 AM PST
by
dangus
To: redleghunter
I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, but the SSPX identifies itself as an order within the Latin Rite.
14
posted on
02/16/2015 10:34:33 AM PST
by
dangus
To: jobim
“...Fellow Catholics: don’t let your hearts be troubled...”
Thanks for the encouragement. All this hate for Catholics right as they are being beheaded by Muslims is truly troubling and the work of Satan to stir up discord and hatred in people’s hearts.
The attack now, right before lent seems to have a diabolical timing.
The Coptic Christians being beheaded, although not considered in union with the Pope, are Catholic and profess all of the beliefs that are being derided by the hostile and bigoted group here on FR who distort history; the Coptics hold the same belief in the sacraments, the special Love and veneration for the Blessed Mother, etc. as the beliefs being attacked.
The Coptic Church history actually adds more proof to the Catholic position (bishops, tradition, sacraments, veneration of the Blessed Mother), since the Coptics have been there since the beginning and their use of the sacraments and love of Mary has continued in an unbroken manner since St. Mark evangelized them around A.D. 50 or thereabouts.
This makes these spurious claims from catholic haters especially inappropriate and extra vicious. I am surprised the forum allows this. I think they don’t allow jack Chick and this appears to be the same type of ugly spin.
To: Salvation
That’s a very confused cladogram.
There is no distinction between “Latin” and “Roman.”
“Benedictine,” “Dominican” and “Cistercian” are not particular churches in the same way that “Coptic,” “Ethiopian,” “Greek Catholic,” etc. are.
Lastly, Catholics use the word “church” to refer also to various subsets of the universal church. What you seem to be calling varying rites within a rite are in most cases “particular churches” in union with each other. A particular church is a level of organization between parish church and the universal church. Those various “particular churches” listed under the (blue) rites simply share a common rite. The Latin particular church, however, uses Latin, Gallican, and Celtic rites.
16
posted on
02/16/2015 10:43:11 AM PST
by
dangus
To: RnMomof7
You cannot disprove apostolic succession. You can argue about the primacy of the pope. But that’s an argument way way older than the doctrines of your religion. And do not say your religion is “Christian, unless of course you are a follower “Mere Christianity”.
Even if we surrender the primacy of the Pope, the tenets of “mere Catholicism” or “Mere Orthodoxy” are much more compelling than sola scriptura,
17
posted on
02/16/2015 10:45:26 AM PST
by
WriteOn
(Truth)
To: dangus; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums
Not being sarcastic...really.
It’s just I see SSPX members here tell us the true Church is with them and VAT2 is error (some even hint heresy). Then we have the Greek, Russian, Coptics saying they are really the true Church.
One Greek Orthodox member told me what he learned from a priest. That there are many ships on the waters to salvation and only the Orthodox church is the true ship. The other ships are all trying to make port but they fight the current and have a larger chance of shipwreck. But the Orthodox ship will make port because they are the True, Holy and Apostolic Church.
18
posted on
02/16/2015 10:45:40 AM PST
by
redleghunter
(He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
To: redleghunter
>> Its just I see SSPX members here tell us the true Church is with them and VAT2 is error (some even hint heresy). <<
The SSPX believes that the New Order mass is deficient; they adamantly insist that they are in union with the Pope as part of the One, True, Catholic church.
>> Then we have the Greek, Russian, Coptics saying they are really the true Church. <<
Yes. So? What does that have to do with the unity of the Catholic church? Incidentally, the Greek Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox and Russian Orthodox believe that they are individual national churches within the same universal church. But Coptic refers to a people (Egyptian), not a rite or a religion; there is also a Coptic Catholic Church and simply a Coptic Church that is not Orthodox.
>> One Greek Orthodox member told me what he learned from a priest. That there are many ships on the waters to salvation and only the Orthodox church is the true ship. The other ships are all trying to make port but they fight the current and have a larger chance of shipwreck. But the Orthodox ship will make port because they are the True, Holy and Apostolic Church. <<
I see nothing wrong with that analogy; the Catholic church does recognize the efficacy of the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox churches. The only problem is in the lack of unity which Christ commanded. Of course, they see THEIR churches as the correct one to be united to... which only makes sense, or else why wouldn’t they quit their church and join the Catholic one?
19
posted on
02/16/2015 10:54:57 AM PST
by
dangus
To: redleghunter
Correction:
The “Coptic Orthodox Church” is the one I referred to as not Orthodox, by which I meant not in union with other Orthodox churches, inasmuch as it rejected all ecumenical councils after the fifth century. It is occasionally refered to as “Coptic Oriental Orthodox Church.” There is also the Alexandrian Orthodox Church, which is in union with other non-Oriental Orthodox churches, and the Coptic Catholic church.
20
posted on
02/16/2015 10:59:17 AM PST
by
dangus
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