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To: CpnHook; CynicalBear; Elsie
"Allen C. Myers, ed. (1987). "Aramaic". The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans. p. 72. ISBN 0-8028-2402-1. "It is generally agreed that Aramaic was the common language of Palestine in the first century AD. Jesus and his disciples spoke the Galilean dialect, which was distinguished from that of Jerusalem (Matt. 26:73) "

No one is disputing the use of Aramaic in the region. However, Greek was the primary language of commerce as already noted.

Your presumption is that when Jesus was talking to His disciples it was always in Aramaic. A Jew might argue it was Hebrew.

Bottom line is we don't know in which language He spoke to His disciples. What we do know is that the NT, inspired by the Holy Spirit, was written in Greek for a reason.

To pull Matt 16:18 out of context by itself does a disservice to the text and leads to error. You have to read the whole exchange starting with Matt 16:13-19 to get the full meaning of the text.

To understand this passage you have to ask the following:

What was Peter's answer to the question in 16:15?

What did Jesus note was revealed to Peter in 16:17

Does Jesus say I will built my church upon you Peter?

Did Jesus use the same Greek word for rock in His statement to Peter? Hint: How is the word rock used elsewhere in the NT? And just in case you ask, they're all in the feminine indicating the gender doesn't matter in this case. See 1 Corinthians 10:4 for a good reference.

You might also do a word search on rock in the OT. I believe either cynicalbear or elsie has collected the various uses of rock in the Bible and how they are used in referring to God and/or Jesus.

Good discussion.

228 posted on 02/13/2015 8:13:10 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
No one is disputing the use of Aramaic in the region. However, Greek was the primary language of commerce as already noted.

That Greek was the primary language of commerce is beside the point when we're not talking about commerce, but daily conversation and public discourse.

Your presumption is that when Jesus was talking to His disciples it was always in Aramaic.

My presumption? LOL. I'd hardly call it mere presumption when there is something of a consensus among Bible scholars that Jesus likely spoke Aramaic to His disciples. Your doubt or opinion to the contrary isn't at all persuasive.

What was Peter's answer to the question in 16:15?

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

What did Jesus note was revealed to Peter in 16:17

The prior answer.

Does Jesus say I will built my church upon you Peter?

Yes. And there is today a considerable body of critical Protestant commentary that recognizes this is the case. (They obviously don't agree with Catholics about what that signifies).

But I agree with you that one should read this passage in context. Prior to verse 18, Jesus says to Peter: "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." This statement, exclamation mark and all, seems rather laudatory of Peter.

Then following verse 18, we read: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Being promised the keys to the Kingdom is pretty significant as to future authority, I'd say.

Now, the Catholic read on verse 18 sees it consistent with the others; Jesus is proclaiming Peter as a "rock" and a foundation of the church. It is both laudatory and indicating a significant future role.

The interpretation being put forth my some here, by contrast, has verse 18 oddly out of symc with the others. So in between "Blessed are you; the Father has given you great insight!" and "I will give you the keys to the Kingdom" Jesus is supposedly saying "you are a little pebble?" That makes little sense.

In any event, basic grammar and syntax tell us that "this rock" refers to Peter. A demonstrative pronoun ("this") refers back to the nearest antecedent noun (which in this case is "Peter"). That is the natural read of the sentence.

And just in case you ask, they're all in the feminine indicating the gender doesn't matter in this case.

Though in none of those instances is the word being used as a proper name for a male. That's the issue under discussion.

233 posted on 02/13/2015 11:09:01 PM PST by CpnHook
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To: ealgeone; CpnHook; Elsie
>>What we do know is that the NT, inspired by the Holy Spirit, was written in Greek for a reason.<<

And second guessing the Holy Spirit doesn't seem like a good idea.

242 posted on 02/14/2015 5:54:12 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: ealgeone; CpnHook; CynicalBear; Elsie
Your presumption is that when Jesus was talking to His disciples it was always in Aramaic. A Jew might argue it was Hebrew.

Let's go to the Book ... it is recorded in scripture:

He took the child by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum,” which means, “Little girl, I say to you, arise!” Mk 5:41

And at three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?”* which is translated, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Mk 15:34

That is Aramaic, not Hebrew, not Latin, not Greek. We KNOW from scripture that Jesus spoke Aramaic. For that reason, Mel Gibson's production of the Passion of the Christ uses Aramaic. According to Linguist Professor Geoffrey Khan of the University of Cambridge, the 3,000-year-old language was once common throughout the entire Middle East and was used for trade, government and divine worship from the Holy Land to India and China. It is also the language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, and is the main language of the Talmud (a key Jewish text). Parts of the ancient Dead Sea scrolls were written in Aramaic.

244 posted on 02/14/2015 6:02:07 AM PST by NYer (Without justice - what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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