Posted on 02/08/2015 3:28:55 PM PST by RnMomof7
I once read a quote from Moody that went "love God and live as you please"
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I didn’t always agree with Dr. Paisley, but I admired his courage of conviction. He knew he was hated in this world. Bold sure men always are. When they stand for gospel truth and unwaveringly stand against Rome, they are hated even more.
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake...”
I was going to say something similar...'I do everything I like'...
They just don't understand...We don't have to please God...We 'want' to please God...But when we fail, and we do, we have an advocate with the Father who knows that we are weak...
We are not under their law, but grace...
Hmmm...Seems that if a person was a Berean, he check with God in the scriptures to see who was telling the truth...
I noticed your posts & replies, and I want to participate, if you don’t mind. I share this post reluctantly because this topic is near and dear to my heart. It is part of my daily experience with the Lord and yet there are some who disagree—strongly. I think it is very important to discuss and understand these things respectfully, especially in light of the opposition and scorn towards the gospel throughout the secular and religious world today.
I have already shared 1Cor 2:2 and Gal 2:20 as concrete examples of how the Apostle Paul continually and daily lived the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as a present reality (not a past remembrance). I would like to share another scripture which, I believe, highlights the same point.
Revelation 5:6 (KJV) ...in the midst of the throne...stood a Lamb as it had been slain,...
Please take a closer look at other English translations of the last phrase
ASV translation “as though it had been slain”
ESV translation “as though it had been slain”
NIV translation “looking as if it had been slain”
Tense: Perfect
Voice: Passive
Mood: Participle
Case: Accusative
Number: Singular
Gender: Neuter
The phrase translated in English “as it had been slain” is confusing because it doesn’t adequately reflect the morphological analysis of the greek. The proper translation should reflect a continual state of being. The same verb (sphazo) “slain” is used 3 verses later in verse 9. The morphological analysis of the Aorist tense in the greek in Rev 5:9 properly shows an event that has occured in the past (thou wast slain). So the more proper translation (of the perfect tense) in verse 6 would use “being” instead of “been”.
I like how the (world renowned) Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown commentary describe this phrase: “In the midst of heavenly glory, Christ crucified is still the prominent object.”
Rev 5:11-13 NIV Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
Beloved, because of God’s Eternal Omnipresence (keeping a past event a present reality), throughout eternity the praises of all creation will be shouted and sung to the (looking as if He is BEING slain) Lamb of God.
God stands outside time but that does not mean that everything that ever happened is an ongoing present reality outside of time.
Scripture tells us what Jesus looks like now and what He's doing now and that is glorified in His human body, seated at the right hand of God interceding for us.
This business that He's being killed constantly in heaven is a bunch of nonsense someone invented to justify the *sacrifice of the mass*. Christ died (past tense) once for all, and is now seated with God in heaven.
Acts 2:32-36 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Acts 5:30-31 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1:15-23 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Hebrews 9:11-17 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 8:1-2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Hebrews 9:24-28 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:8-14 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Hebrews 10:15-18 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
This business of Jesus being continually slain on an altar is completely contrary to what Scripture clearly teaches.
Jesus continual dying is not what saves us. It is His death and resurrection.
Plus Jesus died on a cross. Nowhere are we commanded to crucify Him again, which can't happen on an altar anyway.
Additionally, the Catholic church claims it's a *bloodless or unbloody sacrifice*, which is not redemptive because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.
So where does the blood that the Catholic church claims the cup is, come from if it's a bloodless sacrifice?
And which body of Jesus is the Catholic church claiming it's sacrificing? The old one that walked this earth and died?
Or His new and resurrected one?
"I have already shared 1Cor 2:2 and Gal 2:20 as concrete examples of how the Apostle Paul continually and daily lived the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as a present reality (not a past remembrance).
I have already responded to this and pointed out that neither verse demonstrates that "Paul continually and daily lived the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as a present reality." Paul focused on teaching the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ in his ministry - in other words, the Gospel. In these cases, you are reading an idea back into a passage.
"The phrase translated in English “as it had been slain” is confusing because it doesn’t adequately reflect the morphological analysis of the greek. The proper translation should reflect a continual state of being. The same verb (sphazo) “slain” is used 3 verses later in verse 9. The morphological analysis of the Aorist tense in the greek in Rev 5:9 properly shows an event that has occured in the past (thou wast slain). So the more proper translation (of the perfect tense) in verse 6 would use “being” instead of “been”."
Again, I will disagree. What is being said is that John in his vision saw Christ as a Lamb that bore the marks of having been slain in the past with continuing result. He stands, not crucified in heaven, but represented as a lamb that had been slain. He stands in the center of heaven. His sacrifice is the center of God's redemptive plan.John does not stop there. This same Lamb that was sacrificed is portrayed as powerful and omniscient. His sacrifice led to his exaltation and glorification.
The whole story is pictured in Revelation 5:6 - not just the sacrifice. Nor is He seen by John in his vision as crucified any longer. The Lamb (Christ) is shown as having been crucified. His sacrifice is once for all. The result of His payment for sin continues for eternity and leads to his power and exaltation.
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
Indeed!
metmom posted: This business that He's being killed constantly in heaven is a bunch of nonsense someone invented to justify the *sacrifice of the mass*.
I am not of the Catholic faith. But as an Evangelical believer, I whole-heartedly worship and pray to Jesus on the cross of Calvary. And at the same time worship and pray to Jesus risen from the grave and seated in Glory at the right hand of God. This is not an either/or worship for me. Through God's Omnipresence they are one and the same.
Also, in order to agree with you, all of creation worshipping a Lamb being slain (recorded in Rev 5:6, 11-13) is nonsense? I don't think so.
I posted: I have already shared 1Cor 2:2 and Gal 2:20 as concrete examples of how the Apostle Paul continually and daily lived the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as a present reality (not a past remembrance).
aMorePerfectUnion posted: I have already responded to this and pointed out that neither verse demonstrates that "Paul continually and daily lived the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as a present reality." Paul focused on teaching the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ in his ministry - in other words, the Gospel. In these cases, you are reading an idea back into a passage.
It seems you are saying that Paul just taught these scriptures as some sort of theoretical gospel of a past experience he had, and didn't live or practice this gospel as a regular part of his daily life. I disagree. In 1Cor 15:31 ...I die daily. In Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ... In 1Cor 2:2 I choose to know nothing but Christ...crucified. In Phil 3:10 That I may know Him,...and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death. I believe that these are not some metaphysical, cloud in the sky, theoretical, unattainable experiences. No sir. These are real and present experiences to be had by the believer at the feet of Jesus at Calvary daily.
Also, by no means do I discount the balance to the scales. That being--the glorious resurrection into new life which is found in Jesus Christ as well. I am emphasizing these crucifixion experiences for the sake of this discussion. And emphasizing them to point out the great sin of the Evangelical Christian doctrine--the rejection of identifying with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as a daily worship experience.
I posted: The phrase translated in English “as it had been slain” is confusing because it doesn’t adequately reflect the morphological analysis of the greek. The proper translation should reflect a continual state of being. The same verb (sphazo) “slain” is used 3 verses later in verse 9. The morphological analysis of the Aorist tense in the greek in Rev 5:9 properly shows an event that has occured in the past (thou wast slain). So the more proper translation (of the perfect tense) in verse 6 would use “being” instead of “been”."
aMorePerfectUnion replied: Again, I will disagree. What is being said is that John in his vision saw Christ as a Lamb that bore the marks of having been slain in the past with continuing result.
Ok, "having been slain in the past with continuing result" would be written differently (with different tense) in the greek. It certainly would not be written in the perfect tense, as is the case in Rev 5:6. So we have a dilemma. Either the tense of the verb "slain" is incorrectly written in the original manuscript, or your opinion of the event is incorrect.
I'll side with the original manuscript.
The sole dilemma here is the interpretation you are ascribing to the greek tense.
I checked with good ol' Dr. Ken Wuest's Expanded translation after reviewing greek commentaries. His Expanded Greek NT capture the sense of each verse when viewed through the lens of Greek language, tenses, sentence structure, etc.
Here is Revelation 5:6
"And one of the Elders says to me, Stop weeping. Consider this. The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Scion of David, gained the victory [and thus is able] to open the scroll and its seven seals. And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living beings and in the midst of that has been slain [in appearance] like a lamb that has been slain [bearing the wounds of the cross in His glorified body], having seven horns and seven eyes which [eyes] are the seven Spirits of God that have been sent forth on a commission into all the earth."
Based on my knowledge of greek from seminary, my review of more than 15 exegetical commentaries, and dear Dr. Ken Wuest's translation of the greek, the Apostle John is not portraying the Lamb as currently crucified. He portrays the Lamb as bearing the marks of crucifixion, but also the marks of glorification. This is consistent with the history of Christ on both accounts.
best.
It does. He forever will continue "having been slain". Never again will He not "have been slain". That does NOT mean He is still being slain. If you have done something in the past it will forever continue to "have been done".
>>So the more proper translation (of the perfect tense) in verse 6 would use “being” instead of “been”.<<
No it wouldn't. Not any more then what you did in the past is still being done by you now.
>>to the (looking as if He is BEING slain) Lamb of God.<<
Wrong, Christ said "once for all. Christ today is BEING at the right hand of God.
Looking like it HAD BEEN slain.
And people don't seem to note that it was STANDING.
And you're right. It's not standing being slain. It's standing as though it had been slain.
When Jesus appeared to the disciples, He still had the marks of the Crucifixion on Him, the holes in His hands and His side, and yet He was very much resurrected and alive.
He was not in the process of being slain when He told Thomas to put his hands in the wounds. He HAD BEEN slain. Bearing the marks of past action to not indicate the action is continuing.
It's the glorified Savior we worship, one who is resurrected and alive, not one who is constantly being killed.
Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings,a the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
It is holding Christ up to contempt to crucify Him to ourselves again.
Catholicism is treading on dangerous ground.
Not one of them has yet answered the questions I asked about which body of Christ it is that they are participating in the sacrifice of.
His earthly body that already died?
Or His resurrected and glorified body?
And what a cruel hoax the Catholic Church perpetuates by giving the image of Christ still suffering not having "finished the work which thou gavest me to do" as Jesus stated to the Father. They still show Him hanging on that cross rather than the glorified Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father.
amen
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