The Protestant Achilles' Heel

catholic.com ^ | March 21, 2014 | Tim Staples

[CynicalBear]

That’s no decoder ring. That’s his seal of divine authority except when it’s not. If he uses the ring then he’s infallible and Christ on earth and when he doesn’t he’s just a bumbling idiot spouting off. I think that’s how that works. Not sure tho.

[nanetteclaret]

Did you even read what it says?

***of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and AT THE SAME TIME of one substance with us as regards his manhood;***

***one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, WITHOUT DIVISION, WITHOUT SEPARATION***

***the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, NOT AS PARTED OR SEPARATED INTO TWO PERSONS, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word,***

It clearly says that Christ’s two natures are one person and not two and they cannot be divided.

It also clearly says:

***Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer***

[Springfield Reformer]

:)

[nanetteclaret]

I realize that you thought I meant that St. Paul taught the doctrine of the Trinity. What I was saying was that St. Paul indicates that in the early Church there were doctrines which were not written down and the Trinity was one of them.

[CynicalBear]

Can God be divided? If not, who forsook who on the cross? And who did Jesus pray to?

[CynicalBear]

>>What I was saying was that St. Paul indicates that in the early Church there were doctrines which were not written down and the Trinity was one of them.<<

Prove it.

[nanetteclaret]

No, God cannot be divided, so when Jesus was quoting Psalm 21:2 on the Cross I guess His human nature was talking to Himself.

[nanetteclaret]

I’m sorry, I don’t have time. I have to do laundry. And if I did have time, it would all be wasted on you because you are determined to argue. You have your mind made up, so even if I did “prove” it to you, you wouldn’t believe me. Why don’t you pray to God and ask Him to make it all clear to you - or at least to open your closed mind? It’s all there in books, the history of the Church, and writings of the Fathers (1st through 5th centuries). That is how I learned. You can, too, if you want to. But I don’t think you do.

[CynicalBear]

And the Muslim’s have their own extra books, and the Mormons have their own extra books. But true Christians stick with God’s word.

[Gamecock]

**I’m sorry, I don’t have time.**

Oh, OK. Go feed your crickets.

[CynicalBear]

And who forsook who on that cross?

[Springfield Reformer]

Did you even read what it says?

***of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and AT THE SAME TIME of one substance with us as regards his manhood;***

***one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, WITHOUT DIVISION, WITHOUT SEPARATION***

***the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, NOT AS PARTED OR SEPARATED INTO TWO PERSONS, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word,***

It clearly says that Christ’s two natures are one person and not two and they cannot be divided.

It also clearly says:

***Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer***

I'm a Protestant.  I'm only bound to Scripture.  I believe there is much good in the Chalcedon statement.  And like Nestorius, I have no objection to the technical sense of Theotokus as God-Bearer.  The problem is in the broader sense of "Mother" as it relates to God.

BTW, yes, of course I read it.  I am hurt and shocked at your suggestion I missed any of it. Well, OK, not really. It's pretty predicable.  But I'm trying to get around the usual and way too predictable misunderstandings.  Did you notice the text I bolded?  Maybe not.  Let me draw it out for you:

Proposition 1:  as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages

Proposition 2:  as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer

Now, you are right to warn against separation into two persons.  If you actually read the link I provided you on Nestorius, you will see there is an excellent argument he would absolutely agree with the two of us on that point.  Unfortunately, there was a language barrier, and things got badly muddled, just as is happening here.  You see how I repeatedly protest that I (like any other Protestant here) am not advocating two persons at all. Yet our protests go unheeded.  You are confused if you think that is what we are advocating.  I advise you to take a deep breath, relax, and read what we are actually saying.  I don't enjoy misunderstandings.  

With that in mind, look again at the two above propositions.  What do they say?  They point to the distinct origins of the human and divine natures.  I am somewhat surprised you did not at least acknowledge this and go from there to prove me wrong.  Instead, you appear to me to be relying on treating "separation" the same as "distinction," and that would be a huge mistake.  We agree that two natures exist in the one person without separation or division, as to substance or essence.  He is one, unified person.  I'll say it again if it will help.  He is one, unified person.  We agree on that.  That unity refutes separation as Chalcedon uses the term, and we both agree this kind of separation is a bad thing.

But that does not prohibit us from recognizing the two natures in Him.  That's distinction. Again, as I bolded before, see in this what we are saying:

Proposition 3: the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union

Proposition three, the distinction theorem, allows us to go back to propositions 1 and 2 and admit a critical distinction between the two natures, their origin.  This entire discussion revolves around that one, tiny point.  If you admit, as you must, that the origin of the divine nature and the human nature are distinct, then you permit that distinction to survive in how we speak of Mary.  The whole point of introducing Theotokus in the first place was NOT to establish an attribute of Mary, but to refute errors concerning Christ and His divinity.  No Christian will disagree that Jesus, from the moment of conception, was fully human and fully divine.  Theotokus ensures the confessor understands who Jesus was while yet in the womb, the God-man.  

But because of the ambiguity of human language, Theotokus, understood as mother in the generative sense, conveys an idea about the Second Person of the Trinity that is patently untrue.  Mary had no role in generating the Godhead in Jesus.  That was Nestorius' objection.  That is our objection.  It is a reasonable objection.  There is an easy way out.  Just use the Biblical expressions.  They're safe, and they don't mislead people into assigning deity to Mary, as has happened within my own family.

Peace,

SR

[editor-surveyor]

>
>> “What I was saying was that St. Paul indicates that in the early Church there were doctrines which were not written down and the Trinity was one of them.” <<

.
Again:

By what source do you ‘know’ this thing that is completely absent from scripture?
.

[editor-surveyor]

.
Let the dead do their laundry! - Take up your (whatever) and teach us!

.

[Springfield Reformer]

What I was saying was that St. Paul indicates that in the early Church there were doctrines which were not written down and the Trinity was one of them.

Again, that is quite the bold assertion.  The only reason I am latching on to it is it is the first time I am aware of any RC has proposed a specific unwritten doctrine in connection with Paul, and as such proof should be offered.  But now it looks like you don't actually mean Paul taught something additional to Scripture regarding the Trinity, that perhaps someone else did, but nothing specific, so we're back to square one.  

BTW, if you haven't hung around here much, you should know we get this a lot, which is why we're responding to it.  The oral tradition is held up as this alternative way to import new truth (new relative to Scripture), yet we can never get any RC to ever document any doctrine that was passed forward solely by oral tradition from the apostles.  We contend there is no such thing.  Which is why I was interested to see what you might try to offer regarding Paul and the Trinity.  Oh well.

Peace,

SR

[don-o]

Then why deny that that same Holy Spirit was given to EVERY believer?

It's not a matter of denying anything. Notice to whom He is speaking when He speaks. All through His ministry, through His Passion and Resurrection. The Day of Pentecost.

It's always to some or all of the Apostles. Paul's epistles are addressed to churches. The common thread is that He deals with groups, not individuals. The pattern is OT and confirmed by Paul to the church at Corinth..."at the mouth of two or three witnesses..."

The first council in Acts 15 has been discussed here many times. There was a pattern laid down. So there is certainly scripture to support the convening of the bishops to seek the Holy Spirit about disputed matters.

Transferring everything committed and promised to the Church to the individual is going to create confusion. Beyond puzzling over why Jesus did not tell the Apostles to write it all down, I ask what about the Christians who had no New Testament? Answer: They were to be in the Church and as Paul says over and over, act and believe like HE had done told them to act. and believe

When, exactly did the common practice of the early church, as shown above, get negated? By what authority?

[RnMomof7]

St. Paul gives equal weight to the doctrines taught “by word” which were not written down in his epistles. The doctrine of the Trinity is one of them.

You do understand that Paul was writing epistles when he wrote this ??.. so the writings he was talking about was the Old Testament,

and hold the traditions which ye have been taught] “Hold” is an emphatic word: stand firm and hold fast (Ellicott) gives the Greek sense more adequately. In traditions which you were taught there is no suggestion of the Romanist idea of Tradition, conceived as an authority distinct from the written Word of God; for the Apostle continues, whether by word or latter of ours (the pronoun belongs to both nouns). He bids them hold by what he had taught, whether it came through this channel or that, provided it were really from himself (comp. 2 Thessalonians 2:2, and ch. 2 Thessalonians 3:14; 2 Thessalonians 3:17). He is now beginning to communicate with the Churches by letter, and stamps his Epistles with the authority of his spoken word. The sentence asserts the claim of the true Apostolic teaching, as against any who would “beguile” the Church away from it. Comp. 1 Corinthians 11:2 : “I praise you that in all things you remember us, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.”(Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)

BTW the quote you used is NOT 2 Thes 2:14 it is 2:15

So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings WE passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

[Elsie]

Hallelujah!!!!^2!

[Elsie]

I hope those Mormons who accept something near to (but arguably better than) King James Version, or pretty much anything other than "Mormon" translation of the Bible...

Not to worry; for GOD, himself; gave the words to CORRECT the KJV to Joseph before he foolishly walked into that jail and ran his mouth off.

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See some differences between GOD's Word and the Joseph Smith's 'translation'

 

 

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Color coding explanation:

 

Added stuff... Changed stuff... Rearranged stuff... Removed stuff... 

 *(UNDERLINED stuff is the DISTRACTING reference on every tenth word or so that infuses LDS 'scripture' online.)

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JOSEPH SMITH—MATTHEW An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23: 39 and chapter 24. Jesus foretells the impending destruction of Jerusalem—He also discourses on the second coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked. 1 aFor I say unto you, that ye shall not see me henceforth and know that I am he of whom it is written by the prophets, until ye shall say: Blessed is he who bcometh in the name of the Lord, in the clouds of heaven, and all the holy angels with him. Then understood his disciples that he should come again on the earth, after that he was glorified and ccrowned on the right hand of God. 2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple; and his disciples came to him, for to ahear him, saying: Master, show us concerning the buildings of the temple, as thou hast said—They shall be thrown down, and left unto you desolate. 3 And Jesus said unto them: See ye not all these things, and do ye not understand them? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here, upon this temple, one astone upon another that shall not be thrown down. 4 And Jesus left them, and went upon the Mount of Olives. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews; and what is the asign of thy bcoming, and of the cend of the world, or the destruction of the dwicked, which is the end of the world? 5 And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you; 6 For many shall come in my name, saying—I am aChrist—and shall deceive many; 7 Then shall they deliver you up to be aafflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be bhated of all nations, for my name’s sake; 8 And then shall many be aoffended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another; 9 And many afalse prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many; 10 And because iniquity shall abound, the alove of many shall wax cold; 11 But he that remaineth asteadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved. 12 When you, therefore, shall see the aabomination of bdesolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of cJerusalem, then you shall stand in the dholy place; whoso readeth let him understand. 13 Then let them who are in Judea flee into the amountains; 14 Let him who is on the housetop flee, and not return to take anything out of his house; 15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes; 16 And wo unto them that are with achild, and unto them that give suck in those days; 17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; 18 For then, in those days, shall be great atribulation on the bJews, and upon the inhabitants of cJerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time; no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel. 19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them. 20 And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be asaved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the bcovenant, those days shall be shortened. 21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews; and again, after the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe him not; 22 For in those days there shall also arise false aChrists, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant. 23 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the aelect’s sake; and you also shall hear of bwars, and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for all I have told you must come to pass; but the end is not yet. 24 Behold, I have told you before; 25 Wherefore, if they shall say unto you: Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not; 26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the aeast, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the acarcass is, there will the eagles be bgathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth. 28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars. 29 Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be afamines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax acold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved. 31 And again, this aGospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all bnations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked; 32 And again shall the aabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled. 33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the asun shall be bdarkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the cstars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 34 Verily, I say unto you, this ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled. 35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my awords shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled. 36 And, as I said before, after the atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth bmourn; and they shall see the cSon of Man dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory; 37 And whoso atreasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall bcome, and he shall send his cangels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the dremainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 38 Now learn a parable of the afig-tree—When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh at hand; 39 So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors; 40 But of that day, and hour, no one aknoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only. 41 But as it was in the days of aNoah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man; 42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the aflood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage; 43 And aknew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the alast days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other bleft; 45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left; 46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; awatch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come. 47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready. 48 Therefore be ye also aready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh. 49 Who, then, is a afaithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 50 Blessed is that aservant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing; and verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 51 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord adelayeth his coming, 52 And shall begin to smite his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, 53 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 54 And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and agnashing of teeth. 55 And thus cometh the aend of the wicked, according to the prophecy of Moses, saying: They shall be cut off from among the people; but the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by. The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

KJV Matthew 23:38-39 24:1-51 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. 1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25. Behold, I have told you before. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. King James Version of the Holy Bible Public domain