Posted on 01/30/2015 7:04:38 AM PST by BlatherNaut
"For the Record: As everyone knew, Pope approved most shocking document in the History of the Church of Rome"
It was what Italians call a "segreto di Pulcinella", that is, not a secret at all: the Pope was personally aware and personally approved the relatio post disceptationem, the "midterm" report released on Monday following the first week of the 2014 Extraordinary Assembly of the Synod of Bishops "on the Family".
What has been called by many prelates a "disaster" or "unacceptable", the first official document of the Church of Rome ever accepting of very curious notions (including the "positive" aspects of same-sex "relationships"), the relatio post disceptationem had obviously been prepared, by its very timing and the astonishing (for Vatican standards) fact of the simultaneous release of several translations, long before the Synod by Lobbyists, including Cardinal Baldisseri, with the main influence of Archbishop Bruno Forte. Now, Cardinal Baldisseri, master of all Synod-related matters, has nonchalantly revealed when asked (as reported by Aleteia and by the splendid Hilary White for LifeSiteNews) that the Pope had been personally aware of it and had personally approved the content of the report.
He also made clear that the non-approved paragraphs of the final report were included as part of the main document (in complete contradiction with any supposed notion of "synodality" or consensus) by direct papal order.
To our knowledge, French historian Christophe Dickès was the first to say at the time, immediately after the publication of the midterm relatio, that its publication would have been impossible without the full knowledge and approval by the pope.
(Excerpt) Read more at rorate-caeli.blogspot.com ...
I don’t know the context of all of those quotations, so I can’t say definitively yes or no.
However, except for the first, and again, without knowing the context I see no problem, and here is why.
Excluding the first.
2. I have no problem with the Church reaffirming the Jews are the Chosen people. I don’t know the context of the rest of the statement.
3. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330, and 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”332
If Muslims of good will, truly seeking the Living God, fast, pray, and give alms, those are good things.
4. Every man is truly an image of God, and thus has virtues given to him by God. Like all people, atheists are sinners. They may lack the gift of faith, or they may be actively rebelling against God. Only God knows and judges accordingly. Our goal in preaching the Gospel to those of hard heart, is remind them of God’s love, encourage them to do good, pray for them, and give them to God and His mercy.
5. Again, if someone approaches God honestly, and in the best way they know how, will he punish them? Rather, as we all seek God, whether we have the grace of the sacraments, or lack them, God always calls us to himself. We pray all people come to God through Jesus and receive His sacraments, however, we don’t give up on those who don’t appear to be following that path.
Please show me what you think the heresy is. In sincerity, I am not sure what you mean.
2. The Catholic Church had never preached the salvation of Jews outside the Catholic Church until VC II. As a matter of fact, prior to 1955, the entire Catholic Church prayed on Good Fridays:
“Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. (’Amen’ is not responded, nor is said ‘Let us pray’, or ‘Let us kneel’, or ‘Arise’, but immediately is said:) Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen”
3. You are quoting JPII’s catechism (which is post VC II). JPII is the pope who prayed, “May St. John the Baptist protect Islam...”
4. Francis appears to be giving up on those “who don’t appear to be following the path”. He encourages Jews, Muslims, Protestants and atheists to pursue their false beliefs.
If one doesn't acknowledge the elephant in the room, one is most likely blind.
Conjecture all you like.
You might also try your hand at reading Tarot cards.
It would appear you no longer wish to be an adherent to the Roman Catholic Church. I may be wrong, and don’t wish to make an accusation.
Please remember, all of the VCII fathers were ordained as priests, and later as bishops, by older, Pre-Vatican II clergy, including Pope St. John Paul II.
If the Church no longer teaches validly, then who is responsible, and when? Second, to that question, when did the promise of Jesus to not let the gates of Hell prevail become invalid?
My sense is that we are of different ages and generations. Thus, we have different experiences, and our opinions are influenced accordingly.
My hope is that every person on Earth should come to believe in Jesus Christ, and all He taught, as well live the sacramental life taught by His church.
While His Church is perfect, those of us who populate it, are not.
May Christ’s peace always be with you, and may you never lose your zeal for Christ.
Is not your first sentence an accusation in itself?
Hypocrite.
I noticed that she didn’t respond to your points. Probably because she really can’t.
Would you say the same to the signatories of the "Filial Appeal to His Holiness Pope Francis on the Future of the Family" (among whom are numbered Cardinals, Bishops, statesmen and prominent intellectuals) who are also so alarmed by the Pope's bizarre words and actions that they are reduced to literally begging him to do his job?
"...Truly, in these circumstances, a word from Your Holiness is the only way to clarify the growing confusion amongst the faithful. It would prevent the very teaching of Jesus Christ from being watered-down and would dispel the darkness looming over our children’s future should that beacon no longer light their way.
Holy Father, we implore You to say this word. We do so with a heart devoted to all that You are and represent. We do so with the certainty that Your word will never disassociate pastoral practice from the teaching bequeathed by Jesus Christ and his vicars—as this would only add to the confusion. Indeed Jesus taught us very clearly that there must be coherence between life and truth (cf. John 14:6-7); and He also warned us that the only way not to fall is to practice His doctrine. (cf. Matt. 7:24-27)..."
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Personalities who have signed:
Kigeli V, exiled King of Rwanda Dr. Alejandro Ordóñez Maldonado, Attorney General of the Republic of Colombia Wolfgang Waldstein, Professor emeritus of the University of Salzburg, member of the Pontifical Academy for Life (Germany) The Most Rev. Wolfgang Haas, Archbishop of Vaduz (Liechtenstein) Joseph M. Scheidler and his wife, Founder and National Director of the Pro-Life Action League of Chicago (USA) H.R.H. Prince Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza, Head of the Royal House of Portugal Dr. Adolpho Lindenberg, Co-founder of the Brazilian Society for the Defence of Tradition, Family, and Property; President of the Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira Institute (Brazil) Rick Santorum, former U.S. Senator (USA) Josef Seifert, philosopher, former President of the International Academy of Philosophy, member of the Pontifical Academy for Life (Germany) H.I.R.H. Prince Dom Luiz of Orleans-Braganza, Head of the Imperial House of Brazil His Eminence Jorge Arturo Cardinal Medina Estévez (Chile) Roberto de Mattei, Professor at the European University of Rome, president of the Lepanto Foundation (Italy) H.H. Duke Paul of Oldenburg and his wife H.H. Duchess Pilar of Oldenburg (Germany) Austin Ruse, K.M., President of the Center for Family and Human Rights (C-Fam) His Eminence Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke (Vatican) Tim Huelskamp, Ph.D., Member of the U.S. House of Representatives (R-KS) Mrs. Marjorie Dannenfelser, President of the Susan B. Anthony List (USA) H.I.R.H. Prince Dom Bertrand of Orleans-Braganza (Brazil) Carlo Casini, Member of the European Parliament and president of the Movement for Life (Italy) H.R.H. Duchess Marie-Cécile of Oldenburg (Germany) Austin Ruse, President of the Center for Family and Human Rights (C-Fam), K.M. H.S.H. Alois Konstantin Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg and his wife H.R.H. Anastasia Victoria Princess of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg (Germany) João Filipe Osório de Meneses Pitta, Conde de Proença a Velha and his wife Maria Isabel José de Mello Osório, Condessa de Proença a Velha (Portugal) John-Henry Westen, Co-founder and Editor-in-chief of LifeSiteNews.com, co-founder of Voice of the Family (Canada) Dr. Caio Xavier da Silveira, Co-founder of the Brazilian Society for the Defence of Tradition, Family, and Property (TFP); President of the Fédération Pro Europa Christiana (France) John Smeaton, Director of the Society for the Protection of the Unborn Children (SPUC), Co-founder of Voice of the Family (UK) General Carlos Alfonso Tafur Ganoza, Former Commander-in-Chief of the Peruvian army (Peru) Ambassador Armando Valladares and his wife. Former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights (USA) Victor Khroul, Associate Professor, Moscow State University; Visiting Professor of Robert Morris University, USA (Russia) The Most Rev. Athanasius Schneider, Auxiliary Bishop of Astana (Kazakhstan) Prof. Dr. Massimo de Leonardis, Professor of History of International Relations and Director of the Department of Political Sciences at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart -Milan (Italy) Principe e Principessa Ferdinando Massimo (Italy) Principe e Principessa Carlo Massimo (Italy) The Most Rev. R.G.L.M. Mutsaerts, Auxiliary Bishop of ’s-Hertogenbosch (The Netherlands) Prince Armand de Merode (Belgium) M.se Luigi Coda Nunziante, President of Associazione Famiglia Domani, and his wife Marchesa Gabriella Coda Nunziante Spalletti Trivelli (Italy) Bernard Antony, President of Chrétienté-Solidarité (France) Mercedes Arzú Wilson, Founder and President of the Family of the Americas (USA) Rev. Msgr. Juan-Miguel Ferrer Grenesch, former Under-secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship, canon of the cathedral of Toledo (Spain) Robert Royal, President of the Faith and Reason Institute and editor-in-chief of The Catholic Thing (USA) Senator Bernard Seillier, Vice-President of the Movement for France, and his wife Françoise Seillier, Former Member of the European Parliament (France) Virginia Coda Nunziante, President of March for Life Committee (Rome, Italy) Jeanne Smits, journalist (The Netherlands) Antonello Brandi, President of Pro Vita (Italy) The Rt. Rev. Emanuel d’Able do Amaral OSB, Archabbot of São Bento of Bahia (Brazil) H.R.H. Countess Hélène of Limburg Stirum (Belgium) Luke Gormally, Director Emeritus, The Linacre Centre for Healthcare Ethics [since 2010: The Anscombe Bioethics Centre, Oxford]; Ordinary Member The Pontifical Academy for Life (UK) Gianfranco Amato, President of Lawyers for Life (Italy) Duca e duchessa Antonello del Balzo di Presenzano (Italy) Dr. Juvenal de Arruda Furtado, Head of the legal department of the Federal Savings Bank, State of Ceará (Brazil) Graf und Gräfin Benedikt Piatti (Austria) Jaime Mendez de Vigo y del Arco and his wife ID Prinzessin Monika zu Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg (Spain) Conte Giorgio Piccolomini (Italy) Dom João de Castro de Mendia, Conde de Resende (Portugal) Conte e Contessa Gustavo Figarolo di Gropello (Italy) Terrence M. Scanlon, President of the Capital Research Center (USA) Christa Meves, author, child and adolescent psychotherapist (Germany) H.R.H. Prince Dom Antônio of Orleans-Braganza (Brazil) Héctor Riesle Contreras, former Chilean ambassador to the Holy See (Chile) Mathias von Gersdorff, author, President of the German Society for the Defence of Tradition, Family, and Property (TFP) (Germany) Prof. Robert Lazu, Ph.D. and his wife. Philosopher and writer. Assistant Professor at Western University--Timisoara (Romania) Ing. Rafael Rey Rey, Peruvian Representative to the Andean Parliament. Former Peruvian Ambassador to Italy (Peru) Prof. Hubert Gindert, Editor-in-Chief of Der Fels, President of the German Catholic Forum (Germany) José Roberto Leme Alves de Oliveira, Judge (Brazil) Conte e contessa Giovanni Vannicelli Casoni (Italy) Comte Michel de Rostolan (France) Dr. Juan Vicente Ugarte del Pino, lawyer, former President of the Peruvian Supreme Court (Peru) Baron et Baronne Cédric Peers de Nieuwburgh (Belgium) Dr. Miguel Nagib, Advisor for the State of São Paulo to the Federal Government (Brazil) Sr. e Sra. Mario Münzenmayer Abarca, former members of the Pontifical Council for the Family (Chile) Ambassador Emilio Barbarani (Italy) Dr. Thomas Ward, Founder and Vice-President of the National Association of Catholic Families and a Corresponding member of the Pontifical Academy for life (UK) Dr. G.J.M. Van den Aardweg, psychologist and psychotherapist. Member of the Scientific Advisory Committee of NARTH (The Netherlands) Prof. David Magalhães, Assistant Professor at the School of Law in the University of Coimbra (Portugal) Maria Madise, coordinator of Voice of the Family (UK) Jean Pierre Maugendre, President of Renaissance Catholique (France) Baron et Baronne Rudolf Pfyffer von Altishofen (Switzerland) Dr. Gilberto Callado de Oliveira, State Prosecutor for the State of Santa Catarina (Brazil) Eduardo Soto Kloss, Doctor of Law, University of Paris. Author (Chile) Olivier Figueras, journalist (France) Prof. Pietro De Marco, Professor at the University of Florence (Italy) Federico Iadiccico, former councillor of the Province of Rome (Italy) Deacon Francisco Eloi Martinho Prior Claro (Portugal) Dom Álvaro Manuel Nogueira Barba de Menezes, President of the Real Associação of Viseu (Portugal) Anne Bernet, writer (France) Mme. Bérénice de Montpellier d’Annevoie (Belgium) M. Philippe Pichot-Bravard, Professor of the History of Law at the University of Brest, writer (France) Alessandro Gnocchi, writer and journalist (Italy) Gianandrea de Antonellis, President of the European Institute for Studies, Research and Formation--IEREF (Italy) Dr. Carlos Alfredo Benítez Meabe, lawyer and legal expert (Argentina) Fernando Moreno Valencia, author, former university professor (Chile) Paolo Deotto, Director of Riscossa Cristiana (Italy) Giovanni Turco, philosopher at the University of Udine (Italy) Mario Correa Bascuñán, Professor, former University President (Chile) John Laughland, writer and journalist (UK) Coronel António Feijó de Andrade Gomes, President of the Military Brotherhood of Nossa Senhora da Conceição (Portugal) Guillaume de Thieulloy, Director of Riposte Catholique (France) Dom Francisco de Bragança Van Uden (Portugal) Justin Shaw and his wife Caroline Shaw (England) Dr. Luís Filipe Esquivel Freire de Andrade, Order of Malta (Portugal) Rev. Msgr. André Reyne, Dean of the Metropolitan Chapter of Notre-Dame des Doms of Avignon (France) Fr. Cor Mennen, canon of the cathedral chapter of ’s-Hertogenbosch (The Netherlands) Cristina Siccardi, writer (Italy) Carlo Manetti, journalist and teacher (Italy) Hedwig Freifrau von Beverfoerde, pro-family activist (Germany) Felizitas Küble, Director of the Publishing House Komm Mit, President of Christopheruswerk (Germany) Rev. Fr. Pavlo Vishkovskyi, Prior Provincial of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate for Ukraine, Russia and Crimea Rev. Fr. Efrem Jindráček OP, Vice-Dean of the School of Philosophy of the Angelicum, Rome (Italy) Benjamin Harnwell, Founder and Honorary President of the Dignitatis Humanae Institute (Italy) Maria Guarini, Director of the website Chiesa e posconcilio (Italy) Michael Hesemann, author (Germany) C. Preston Noell III, President of Tradition, Family, Property, Inc. (USA)
Until it eventually "evolves" into a complete contradiction of itself (e.g. Kasper's little plan to scratch adultery off the list of sins).
Makes perfect sense if you press the "I believe" button and check your brain at the door.
Only if they repeatedly kept inferring that the Code of Canon Law, CCC, or Vatican II were all somehow defective. Oh, and maybe if they were regularly carping and back-biting about the Pope.
I have looked into the site you mentioned, and found no confirmation of it except for a few blogs. It is isn’t referenced by EWTN, Catholic Answers, or Cardinal Burke himself.
There are no statements by the Americans listed, acknowledging their signature, nor encouraging others to sign.
In short, its provenance is questionable at best and shady at worst.
I don't hear you complaining about a carping and back-biting pope who has nothing good to say about traditional Catholics or mothers of large families.
Cardinal Burke, himself, signed the petition. As far as public comments from the good Cardinal, we have haven't heard word one from him since he was recently summoned to Rome for a "private meeting" with Francis.
Why do you think the Cardinal is now silent?
Your words imply that a faithful Catholic must believe that Canon Law, the CCC and Vatican II are without defect, and that the words and actions of popes are above criticism. These are misapprehensions which are frequently displayed by Protestants and others who are ill-informed regarding the facts (generally through no fault of their own). Catholics, however, should know better than to believe such falsehoods.
Highly unlikely that the “professional Catholics” at Catholic Answers and EWTN would promote a petition embarrassing to the Pope.
EWTN has become the television network of New Church, feeding its mass audience programming that combines solid Catholic content with the poison of Modernist innovation: the new liturgy, the new theology, and the new soul of New Church, whose disastrous arrival Pius XII was able to foresee only in the light of Fatima. (EWTN, serving a primary New Church objective, revises the Message of Fatima to mean precisely the opposite of what the Mother God told the seers. See Chapter 16.)
But EWTN goes beyond these corruptions to a blasphemous attack on Catholic chastity and decency that would have horrified even the likes of Loisy and Tyrrell. (See Chapters 14-15, which are not to be read by children.) For example, the book discuses an EWTN “marriage counselor” who told EWTN’s viewers to imagine Our Lord Himself engaging in marital relations with their spouses in order better to appreciate “holy sex.” The same EWTN celebrity contended on the air that sexual relations are a preparation for eternal beatitude, without which one will not be able to stand before God. That EWTN issues parental warnings against exposure of children to such elements of its programming is only one sign that EWTN is a network gone wrong—very wrong.
I don’t think he actually signed it. Nor do I think any of the other “personalities” did either.
The whole thing looks like a sham, and there is no independent verification, any where.
The point was to indicate nobody seems to have heard or written about this petition except for a couple of blogs. Love it or hate it, somebody in Catholic media would have picked it up.
Without defect, as they are part of the Ordinary Magesterium, that is correct.
Above criticism is another point entirely.
Are you suggesting that the Code of Canon Law, the CCC, or the documents of Vatican II and later are somehow either invalid or defective?
If so, who then has the authority to lead the Church, and under what rules?
Finally, regarding the above documents, my opinion and your opinion don’t count. It is the opinions of the ordained men, involved in those properly called and consisted groups, with proper authority given by the Pope, to write these documents. It is/was also within the authority of the Pope to approve or disapprove. Consider the history of Humana Vitae, and why Paul VI wrote it.
He thought the bishops were going in the wrong direction, and said so! He countered the “prevailing wisdom,” which promoted artificial contraception, etc. with the unchanging truth.
As of now, I continue to hear nothing but posturing, bickering, and backbiting. Don’t like it? Leave. Want to change? Work for change by acting positively, charitably, and within given strictures. Don’t like that? There’s the door.... I am sure SSPX would be glad to have you (pl, not specific).
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