Premillennialism and the Tribulation

In previous discussion of premillennialism in relation to the tribulation, the respective arguments for pretribulationism, partial rapture, posttribulationism, and midtribulationism have been examined, and the pretribulational position in general sustained. By way of conclusion and summary, some fifty arguments for pretribulationism can now be proposed. It is not presumed that the statement of these arguments in themselves establishes their validity, but rather that the previous discussion supports and justifies this summary of reasons for the pretribulational view.

is used for the coming of Christ for His church, while the term second coming is uniformly used as a reference to His coming to the earth to establish His millennial kingdom, an event which all consider posttribulational. While the words rapture and translation are not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture reference is made to the fact that the church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven. By the term translation the thought is conveyed that those who are thus raptured are transformed in their physical bodies from natural and corruptible bodies to spiritual, incorruptible, and immortal bodies. Strictly speaking, the dead are raised while the living are translated. In common usage, however, this distinction is not normally maintained.

In the discussion the posttribulational view is considered the principal contender against pretribulationism and is primarily in mind in the restatement of the arguments. The other positions, however, are also mentioned in so far as they oppose pretribulationism on some special point. The preceding discussion has pointed to the preponderance of argument in support of the pretribulational position, and the following restatement should serve to clarify the issues involved.

1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord’s return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.

2. The detailed development of pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.

3. Pretribulationism is the only view which allows a literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the great tribulation.

4. Only pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.

5. Pretribulationism maintains the Scriptural distinction between the great tribulation and tribulation in general which precedes it.

6. The great tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deut 4:29-30; Jer 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

7. None of the Old Testament passages on the tribulation mention the church (Deut 4:29-30; Jer 30:4-11; Dan 9:24-27; 12:1-2 ).

8. None of the New Testament passages on the tribulation mention the church (Matt 24:15-31; 1 Thess 1:9-10; 5:4-9 ; Rev 4—19 ).

9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

11. The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, midtribulationism destroys the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuses Israel’s program with that of the church.

12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the tribulation.

13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom 5:9; 1 Thess 1:9-10; 5:9 ). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev 6:17).

14. The church will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:1-9) which includes the tribulation.

15. The possibility of a believer escaping the tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev 3:10).

17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted upon the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Pet 2:6-9).

18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven, and do not remain on the earth as taught by posttribulationists (John 14:3).

19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor 15:51-52; 1 Thess 4:17).

21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

22. The godly remnant of the tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

23. The pretribulational view as opposed to posttribulationism does not confuse general terms like elect and saints which apply to the saved of all ages with specific terms like the church and those in Christ which refer to believers of this age only.

24. The pretribulational interpretation is the only view which teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.

25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess 4:18) is significant only in the pretribulational view, and is especially contradicted by posttribulationism. continues in sin, while at the second coming the world is judged and righteousness is established in the earth.

44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the second coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the tribulation.

45. The rapture is described as imminent, while the second coming is preceded by definite signs.

46. The translation of living believers is truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the second coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

47. The rapture concerns only the saved, while the second coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

48. At the rapture Satan is not bound, while at the second coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming.

50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the second coming in either Testament ever mentions a translation of living saints at the same time.

>>As for the passages in First Thessalonians, the church is specifically admonished to expect tribulation but not wrath:<<

Which leaves one to determine when that wrath begins. We see in Revelation when that wrath begins.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?"

They were speaking of the events of the seal judgements which were the first of the judgements.

The Greek word in the text of 1 Thessalonians 1 is ῥυόμενον (rhyomenon) which is Strong's word #4506.

4506 rhýomai (from eryō, "draw to oneself") – properly, draw (pull) to oneself; to rescue ("snatch up"); to draw or rescue a person to and for the deliverer.

We can compare that with 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where we are "caught up" or "snatched up" in the twinkling of an eye.

>>Being kept from the Great Tribulation does not require being taken out of this world:<<

The passage of Revelation 3:10 does not say "kept from" in the Greek. It says "out from". The Greek word there is Strong's word #1537.

1537 ek (a preposition, written eks before a vowel) – properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within.

So there once again we see the meaning of "out from" rather then "saved through" or "protected through". Scripture is consistent in the meaning of being taken out from among. So indeed the idea is that we will be taken out of this world since we also see in Revelation 3:10 that affliction is coming on the "whole world" or "all those" dwelling on the earth. God has never once in scripture subjected faithful followers to His wrath.

>>John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.<<

Look at that verse again. It says "from the evil one". To use that in reference to the rapture or "snatching away" is in error. It is not the "evil one" who's wrath the world is experiencing during what we refer to as the tribulation. Jesus is there simply talking of not taking people out of the world upon their conversion but that they would be kept from falling for the lies of Satan. That prayer has nothing to do with taking the faithful at the beginning of time of God's wrath on the "whole earth" and all it's inhabitants.

>>The same Greek word is used to describe the keeping of God in both passages. It could be translated similarly as “saved from” but does not have the same implication.<<

You were referring to John 17:15 and Revelation 3:10 but that doesn't work. You forgot to include the words around it. In John 17:15 it is "from" and in Revelation 3:10 it is "out of". I will admit I may have misread you intent on your above statement.

I will simply state that for the rest of your post the misunderstanding of "the day of the Lord" being simply one day is in error. It's a period of time.

“[In Revelation 6:17] They were speaking of the events of the seal judgements which were the first of the judgements.”

I believe Revelation 6:17 does identify, at least on the timeline of the seven seal judgments, when mankind finally recognizes the arrival of God’s wrath. However, your assumption that this awareness extends backward to all of the seal judgments is not supported by the text.

When anti-Christs arises, when major wars happen, when there is famine, disease, and other calamities, the majority of mankind does not fear God and hide. Even though a fourth of the world’s population dies, there is still no fear of God.

How do we know this for a certainty? Because a massive persecution of Christ’s followers happens during the fifth seal. Incidentally, I do not see how the persecution of saints can be construed to be an example of God’s wrath poured out, regardless of a person’s position on the timing of the rapture.

Something transpires between the time of the fifth seal judgment and after the sixth seal judgment. One might argue it is merely the destruction of meteors that causes this fear. Yet, the passage shows mankind now sees God and Christ in the judgments.

To me, and I am admitting that this is my opinion rather than interpretation, the only thing big enough to produce this change in mankind is the visible return of Christ in glory with His holy angels which then proceed to punish the inhabitants of earth with fiery destruction.

The men of the earth hide themselves because the Day of Wrath has come. It has not passed. It has arrived. Context also supports this because now they hide, whereas before they persecuted. Before they were bold against God. Now they tremble.

“The Greek word in the text of 1 Thessalonians 1 is ... rhyomenon which is Strong’s word #4506... ‘draw to oneself’ – properly, draw (pull) to oneself; to rescue (’snatch up’); to draw or rescue a person to and for the deliverer.”

1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

I agree, but it is speaking of God’s wrath rather than tribulation.

“The passage of Revelation 3:10 does not say ‘kept from’ in the Greek. It says ‘out from’. The Greek word there is Strong’s word #1537.”

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

It is a dangerous thing to meddle with the precise meaning of scripture in order to support a particular view. Now I am not accusing you of doing so, but I am saying you need to be careful not to elevate your opinion so high as to attempt to make scripture bend to it. The passage means what it means. It does not mean what either you or I want it to mean. I compared numerous translations, and they are in agreement that “keep you from” is a correct translation. Darby, who invented the systematized version of the pre-trib rapture, is the only one I saw who adds the word “out” to his translation. This could be a possible translation, but it certainly NOT the only correct translation.

You can verify this here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203%3A10&version=NKJV;NIV;YLT;DARBY

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Here the same root word is used for “keep”. A different preposition is used to say “keep in” because the disciples were kept in His Father’s name. This is in contrast to being “kept from” which Christ uses in verse 15:

John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

The preposition ek (out or from) is used twice here. The disciples will not be taken out (ek) of the world, but they will be kept from (ek) the evil one.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/17-12.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/17-15.htm

So Revelation 3:10 describes being kept, whether protected from or taken out from is a subjective determination. John 17:15 shows that we CAN be kept from (protected through) evil without being taken out of this world.

(I am not saying the passage in John is about being kept from the tribulation period. I am merely showing the meaning of the Greek terms in Revelation 3:10 CAN refer to being kept through this rather than taken out of it.)

Incidentally, there is a great multitude which no man can number which comes out of the Great Tribulation:

Revelation 7:14
These are the ones who come out [erchomenoi ek] of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who are these people? How did they come out of the Great Tribulation? There is no mention of their death. They are not described as disembodied souls as those under the altar in chapter 6.

“I will simply state that for the rest of your post the misunderstanding of the day of the Lord’ being simply one day is in error. It’s a period of time.”

I answered this already:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3243424/posts?page=25#25

Can you please show me one indication I have made that I imagine the Day of the Lord to be one, twenty-four hour day?

I have only repeated what the Bible says about the Day of the Lord. It comes like a thief. It comes surprisingly, unexpectedly, and with cataclysmic destruction on the world. There is a difference between the time period called the Day of the Lord and the moment that this time period begins.

Daniel’s seventieth week does not begin unexpectedly or with cataclysmic events. In contrast, the Day of the Lord does:

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:3, 4, 7, 10
knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” ...
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Where in the Olivet passages (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) or in Revelation 6 do we see the earth consumed by fire? Yet Paul tells the Thessalonians they will enter into rest when Christ returns with holy angels that execute fiery judgment. It is because these things follow the seven signs of the Olivet discourse, Christ’s return being the seventh and final sign before the arrival of the time period known as the END of the age / Day of the Lord. Then the destruction by fire begins.

Well, let's take a different tac. When is the last seven years of Daniels prophesies that God deals specifically with the nation of Israel?

>>Darby, who invented<<

I dismiss those type of lame arguments out of hand. They don't sway me nor do they impress me. Either they are supported by scripture or not. Let's deal with the original.

>>(I am not saying the passage in John is about being kept from the tribulation period. I am merely showing the meaning of the Greek terms in Revelation 3:10 CAN refer to being kept through this rather than taken out of it.)<<

I understand that but all of scripture needs to agree or fit with all of the rest of scripture and that's what we have to strive for.

>>Incidentally, there is a great multitude which no man can number which comes out of the Great Tribulation:<<

Not difficult at all to understand. How many people that now deny will realize the we were correct after we're all gone? Millions I would guess.

>>Can you please show me one indication I have made that I imagine the Day of the Lord to be one, twenty-four hour day?<<

You didn't read my admission that I may be misreading you on that?

>>It comes like a thief.<<

Only to those who are in darkness.

>>Daniel’s seventieth week does not begin unexpectedly or with cataclysmic events.<<

No it begins with a signed peace treaty but if you think that peace treaty is signed after a period of peace guess again.

“When is the last seven years of Daniels prophesies that God deals specifically with the nation of Israel?”

We do not know when it will be, just that it is the final seven years before Christ’s kingdom is established on earth.

God will bring Israel to salvation during those seven years and also fulfill all other prophecies concerning Israel that must happen prior to the kingdom. Specifically...

Daniel 9:24
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

Prior to this there has always been an unbelieving element among Israelites, and God preserved a remnant for Himself that had faith. Today, that remnant is part of the church, which is also made out of the remnant of believers from every nation.

But God is not going to only deal with Israel during these seven years. He will also judge the nations. Some nations will be saved and some will fall. This will not only culminate in the fulfilling of God’s plan for Israel, but also His plan for the nations. And the nations will be judged.

Daniel 11:41-43
He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels.

Zechariah 14:16, 17, 21
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 25:31-32
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Revelation 21:24-26
And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

“I dismiss those type of lame arguments out of hand. They don’t sway me nor do they impress me. Either they are supported by scripture or not. Let’s deal with the original.”

It is a simple fact that the passage in Revelation 3:10 is almost universally translated into English without describing the keeping from the Great Tribulation as being taken out from it. Darby is the rare exception. He has a pretty good translation, and including “out” is one possible way to translate the passage. But so is the way all of the other versions translate it. You cannot draw a conclusion from this verse that a particular church was being promised not to be on earth when the Great Tribulation occurs. That is reading into the passage something that just isn’t there.

Darby DID come up with the systematic pre-trib view. Whether this was a long-held view of the believers down through the centuries could be a point of debate, but more recent scholars and those contemporary with Darby did not espouse a systematized view in favor of a pre-trib rapture until Darby laid out his arguments for it. Many scholars, such as Scofield, were persuaded by Darby. If someone else held this view in recent history before Darby, I would love to hear about it.

Most theologians agreed with the explanation of Daniel’s seventieth week. The issue of pre-millenialism was also pretty much settled by scholarly debate. But the pre-trib rapture was something new to theologians of Darby’s day. That could be because it originated with him, or it could be because it was a lost truth. Either way, he did supply to us the modern systematic teaching of the pre-trib rapture.

“I understand that but all of scripture needs to agree or fit with all of the rest of scripture and that’s what we have to strive for.”

I agree 100%. I have studied this subject for many years and found the pre-trib view is able to fit nicely with some passages while others require back-flips to try to reconcile. And, more significantly, there is no single linchpin that supports the pre-trib view. There are fewer passages that fit nicely with a post-trib view, and even fewer that fit nicely with a mid-trib view. But each view has a reason for support.

The only view that fits nicely with all passages is the pre-wrath view. There are certainly passages that are hard to understand with regard to any of these views, but I find that there are passages that just do not fit anything but pre-wrath. As I have mentioned before, it is the only view that does not have a date-setting problem. This is because Christ will return AFTER the Great Tribulation like a thief, surprisingly and unexpectedly, according to Matthew 24. All other views consider the Great Tribulation to end simultaneously with Daniel’s seventieth week, which makes His second coming predictable for pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib views.

On the other hand, the pre-wrath view regards this event as singularly happening at the end of a shortened Great Tribulation and preceding the Day of the Lord period which completes the final period of Daniel’s seventieth week. Christ’s coming after the Great Tribulation and prior to the Day of the Lord (or actually the same moment it begins) allows for His return after the Great Tribulation to be “like a thief”.

“Only to those who are in darkness.”

Agreed. But even though neither the return of Christ nor the Day of the Lord will overtake us like a thief, we still do not know the day or the hour. It is still not for us to know the times and seasons. But He has revealed the signs which allow us to “see the Day approaching”. If there are no signs, then what Day does the author of Hebrews mean, and by what means can we see it approaching?

Hebrews 10:25
not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

“No it begins with a signed peace treaty but if you think that peace treaty is signed after a period of peace guess again.”

The seal judgments begin with a period of false peace. This is supported by the fact that the opening of the second seal unleashes a second horse rider who has power to take peace from the earth. There must be some semblance of peace for him to take.

Revelation 6:3-4
When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

We have had some fruitful conversations CynicalBear. I appreciate your efforts to proclaim the truth of the Bible, even if we disagree on this particular issue. Sooner or later we will come to an agreement. I will be happy to be proved wrong and will not resent you saying “I told you so” on the way up, if such is the case. On the other hand, if things shape up differently than you expect, remember the things I have said here and adjust your plans and expectations accordingly. Don’t become unsettled by prophecies not unfolding as you expect, but find strength from God to endure whatever tribulations may come your way. Even if we do not go through the Great Tribulation, tribulation itself is a normative characteristic of being a follower of Christ.

>>We do not know when it will be, just that it is the final seven years before Christ’s kingdom is established on earth.<<

That is where mid trib and post trib believers get tangled up. Paul makes the statement "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in". Luke also makes mention of it when he writes "and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." That's when a change occurs. Once again the sacrifices are begun in the rebuilt temple. This "dispensation of grace" as Paul called it ends and once again God deals with Israel and the rest of the world as He did prior to Christ's death. The "times of the Gentiles" ends and God's chastisement on an unbelieving world begins.

>>But God is not going to only deal with Israel during these seven years. He will also judge the nations. Some nations will be saved and some will fall.<<

That is certainly true. But some will be saved through severe chastisement. Those who are now faithful followers of Christ will not go through that chastisement. God has never chastised the faithful.

The passages of Zechariah 14, Matthew 25, and Revelation 21 are all referring to the time after that seven years ends with the battle of Armageddon. At that point Christ is setting up His 1000 year reign on earth. Those who refused to take the mark of the beast will enter that Kingdom. The raptured saints will rule and reign with Christ.

>>You cannot draw a conclusion from this verse that a particular church<<

It's not a "particular church" at least as that term is understood today. It's all faithful believers who trust on, and have put their faith in Christ alone.

>>Darby DID come up with the systematic pre-trib view. Whether this was a long-held view of the believers down through the centuries could be a point of debate<<

It probably was not a view "through the centuries". God told Daniel to "roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end". The full understanding of that prophesy would not be revealed until the end was near. Very few believed that Israel would once again be a nation in the land God gave it. Now we can understand God's promise to bring them back from the nations to which they were dispersed.

>>I have studied this subject for many years and found the pre-trib view is able to fit nicely with some passages while others require back-flips to try to reconcile.<<

It's been nearly 50 years for me. I had the same problem as you with the "others require back flips". But they really don't when you study them more closely comparing to other scripture. And you are right, "there is no single linchpin". It sounds like you are going through what I went through. A certain view fits until you hit some passage that doesn't fit. The bottom line starting point for me was the seven years left for Israel. God has never had two "dispensations" or how He deals with people at the same time. So this "dispensation of grace" must end prior to that seven year period when God begins dealing once again with Israel and the whole world under the law until Israel accepts Christ as the messiah which they will.

>>The only view that fits nicely with all passages is the pre-wrath view.<<

Agreed, or you could also view it as the "pre chastisement" view. I think we both agree that the "chastisement" begins shortly after that peace treaty is signed. I believe the "wrath" begins with the first seal. After the sixth seal we see that people admit that it's the wrath as I showed from Revelation 6. Yes it becomes worse and worse but I don't think we can disagree that even the first seal is God's judgement. He is the one directing it rather than as it is now just allowing Satan certain leeway.

>>it is the only view that does not have a date-setting problem.<<

I think the only view that does not have a date setting problem is the pre-trib view. Once that peace treaty is signed the number of days are set and on record. If you accept the fact that the peace treaty is the beginning of the last seven years before Christ steps in and ends it all then if we are hear at the time of that signing of the peace treaty we would simply be able to count the days.

>>This is because Christ will return AFTER the Great Tribulation like a thief, surprisingly and unexpectedly, according to Matthew 24.<<

Think about that again. Like I said, the number of days is set from the signing of that peace treaty. Christ coming at the end is a known and recorded time. It can't be surprising or unexpected. The statement "no one knows the day or the hour" would not be true.

>>Christ’s coming after the Great Tribulation and prior to the Day of the Lord<<

That's the statement that I use to say "don't think it's a single day or event". The "day of the Lord" is the entire time from the beginning of the first seal (right after the signing of the peace treaty) to the battle of Armageddon which ends the tribulation period or what scripture calls the "time of Jacobs trouble". John's comment at the beginning in Revelation 1:10 is "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day". Now the word translated there as "on" is used 2775 times in the New Testament and nearly every one is translated "in" instead of "on". Even in that verse the very same Greek word is used that's translated "in the spirit". The term "day of the Lord" is used 25 times and always refers to a time of judgement or punishment which the time from the first seal will be.

>>The seal judgments begin with a period of false peace.<<

Two consideration there. There will be a time when Israel, and the world for that matter, will think there is peace after the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 which precedes the last seven years. There is also a feeling of peace after the peace treaty is signed which will happen just after that battle of Ezekiel. Another conversation at another time.

>>We have had some fruitful conversations CynicalBear.<<

We have for sure and I have enjoyed and I hope it has cause those who are reading these to study.

>>Sooner or later we will come to an agreement.<<

I do believe we will.

>>I will be happy to be proved wrong and will not resent you saying “I told you so” on the way up, if such is the case.<<

Well I do want to make you happy!! :-) And no I would not say "I told you so". It's just not in my nature.

>>adjust your plans and expectations accordingly.<<

Don't misunderstand. I make no plans per my understanding on this subject nor would I fear should the peace treaty be signed if I am still alive and here.

>>but find strength from God to endure whatever tribulations may come your way.<<

I'm a victim of polio back in 1950 and can assure you that endurance through God's strength is not unknown to me.

As an interesting side note to all of this is that I personally knew Hal Lindsey back in the late 70s and 80s. If you remember he wrote "The Late Great Planet Earth" in which he proposed the end was probably 1988. He based that on the belief that a "generation" was 40 years and 1988 was 40 years after Israel became a nation. I disagreed with him because scripture says "The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years" found in Psalm 90:10. So the statement of Jesus "this generation shall not pass" would be 70-80 years after Israel became a nation.

I find myself in the middle of a time-consuming project and will save the discussion of dispensations for another occasion.

I really appreciate your sharing. Your final comment is excellent food for thought:

“... 1988 was 40 years after Israel became a nation. I disagreed with him because scripture says ‘The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years’ found in Psalm 90:10. So the statement of Jesus ‘this generation shall not pass’ would be 70-80 years after Israel became a nation.”

I realize you are not setting dates here, but it would not be surprising to see the “generation” prophecy fulfilled in connection with Israel becoming a nation again. The time from of 70-80 years would be 2018-2028, not too far away. Of course a generation passing could also mean that a person alive in 1948 will still be alive to see the end, which could be more than a hundred years.

While I am not inclined at all to set dates, the way events are shaping up in this world, it would be quite surprising if the end is not extremely near. Wickedness abounds around the globe as never before. Technology allows things to happen now that never could have in the past. When I was a child I wondered how a day could come when a mark would be used for financial transactions and why people would choose to accept it. There is no wonder now. I wondered about people wanting to die and being unable to find death. I can see where science and technology could facilitate that too. Of course, television and the Internet can enable the anti-Christ to be seen around the world. While most of these things are purely speculation, I think it would be hard to imagine some aspects of prophecy being fulfilled a hundred years ago.

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