Posted on 01/06/2015 1:30:39 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
EWTN Live - Protestant Theology - Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J. with David Anders - 06-23-2010
No, of course i do not mean such, as by their works they testified they were not Protestant any more than you consider Ted Kennedy a real RC, but were all more like popes, irreprovable, isolationist, with their word being the supreme authority. .
However, unlike us in the basic conservative evan. faith i preach (not a particular church as supreme) you try to attack, you are stuck with these as "brethren" since Rome treats them as members.
Once again your attempts to defend Rome are an argument against her.
Don’t know about you, but I have never not considered Ted Kennedy, a brother in Christ. A very flawed man, but if he says he was a Catholic, who am I to judge? ;)
Heretics are not created by Protestantism.
They were right there from the time of Christ, as the Bible records.
They are created by people who reject God’s Word and will, but don’t do so like atheists or Muslims. They adopt the name Christian and try to subvert the truth from within the Church.
They will always be, until Christ returns.
And as the Bible says, those who follow them, do so because they don’t love the truth.
I know from seeing a PBS documentary on Jones, at one point he threw the Bible on the floor before his church and said it was he that was to be followed, not the Bible. Many people left at that, but many didn’t. We are confronted by choices and temptations, and no matter what the Church looks like, that is the way it is. Choosing the truth when the choice is put before you is what matters.
Don’t you see, though, as a bigger problem, that in the Catholic Church, heretics are allowed to stay, as Daniel1212 mentioned, and practice quite openly, even in the highest reaches of leadership? I know from your own posts that you consider it a problem. And they do this despite the fact that Titus 3:10 says heretics should be warned, and then if they don’t repent, should be put out of the Church. Leaders like Koresh, etc., don’t have a good standing among Christians, because inevitably they say what they believe, and it’s unbiblical.
For example, I went to a Baptist church awhile back because it’s very close to me, and I was led to confront the pastor after a few weeks and never went back again (I usually check out the church well, and should have known what type of Baptist church it was from there being about only 15 people in attendance every week (all Hispanic immigrants), but I was new to the area, and I also believe God led me there right then to talk to that pastor). I thought I heard something that sounded wrong in what he said one week, but the last week there could be no mistaking it, it was so obvious. He said men weren’t specially created (He never brought up the part about us being created in God’s image), but were just animals in God’s eyes, and His actions towards us were just for our education and improvement, to perfect us. When I talked to him after that service, he said if I believed the Bible as is, then my God “was a monster,” and he was educated in theology and had written books, so I didn’t know what I was talking about. We were supposed to have a potluck after the service, but I wouldn’t go along with him to it. He was a European-looking South American himself, and part of the service was in Spanish. They also sang the old hymns. It seemed to me that the congregation probably knew so little about Christianity’s basics that they didn’t understand the man was teaching blatant heresy at points (and the rest of the time, his sermons that I heard seemed somewhat off and not very inspiring). But I have believed that if and when God so chooses, that He will send warning and correction so that if there are any people there who are seeking the truth, they will find out that this man is a false prophet teaching lies, and leave. If they have a hunger for God, they will.
It's the Catholic way.
It is important to distinguish heresy from schism and apostasy. In schism, one separates from the Catholic Church without repudiating a defined doctrine. An example of a contemporary schism is the Society of St. Pius X—the "Lefebvrists" or followers of the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre—who separated from the Church in the late 1980s, but who have not denied Catholic doctrines. In apostasy, one totally repudiates the Christian faith and no longer even claims to be a Christian.
Definition of terms is important in some matters. Some of the people who are Catholic who you might consider to be heretics are not heretics.
Applying that same standard you believe like Pelosi, Biden, Pope Francis, Cardinal Dolan, the legion of Catholic whackjobs and evil popes down through history.
I’m not going to go into beliefs that are held by the Catholic Church, such as about the pope’s infallibility and certain beliefs about Mary.
Just on the basis of the most essential of Christian beliefs, there are open heretics in the Roman Catholic leadership. Heresy isn’t the chief problem of a heretic, but the result of not loving God and of rejecting His authority. It’s a matter of spirit, and that can show up in openly rejecting the most fundamental of Christian beliefs, or the more secondary ones (which are just as critical). Timothy Dolan might not openly deny Jesus’ divinity or resurrection, but when he said “good for” Michael Sam, for being the first NFL player openly living a homosexual lifestyle, that showed heresy, and to do that in one part of essential Christian belief is to do that in all.
I reject your authority to decide who is or who is not a heretic.
I try to bite my tongue, not always successfully, when looking at the varying theological perspectives. But, for me, the bottom line is these words of the Apostle Paul in Galatians 1:9—
“As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.”
Followers of Christ must evaluate the words coming from anyone to see if they are preaching another gospel. I don’t care who it is (Pope, Billy Graham, Jim Jones, etc.); the Gospel of our Lord must be held higher than anyone else. There is certainly room for liberty on a number of issues, but there can be none when it comes to this.
Just on the basis of half of the Catholic threads in the forum, their own Pope is one of those open heretics. Junk like this EWTN program IMO only serves as a distraction from the observable, palpable rejection of their own church's direction and leadership!
They were never Christians to begin with.
It’s not only a matter of authority, but obligation. We have authority, as well as responsibility, and God will hold us accountable. Believer or not, what we believe and do affects ourselves and others. We will also have to account to God for every word we say. We are all servants, serving either God or someone or something else. This is from Revelation 3, where Jesus addressed the church in Sardis:
3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
This church’s leaders had authority, and we have to believe it came through the laying on of hands. Yet the church went wrong. A few people, though, remained faithful. Even if the faithful ones happened to all be leaders, it seems not all the leaders were faithful from what’s written here. And the rift would have meant discord in the church somehow, and some disagreement with leadership somewhere, meaning that some people had to decide to disagree with leaders in order to stay faithful to God. And there is not just a responsibility to do so, but a penalty for not doing so. Leaders are fine so far as they follow God, but the minute they don’t, or to the extent they don’t, they shouldn’t be followed. And we are to thoroughly test everything, and not just blindly receive it, to see if it’s from God or not. If it is, it will always pass the test. The Lord will reveal the truth to us. Questioning things, in faith, is not doubting God, but doubting everyone and everything else but God, and doing what He requires. The whole Bible is clear on that ultimately things are between God and ourselves individually. We individually make our choices of who and what to listen to, and follow, and we’ll be judged accordingly.
Just for our own good, then, which is actually God’s concern, it makes the most sense to not think we know anything ourselves, but to submit in our hearts to whatever God wills for us and whatever He reveals to us, and decides for us. In other words, to have an attitude of trusting submission to Him. If we’re willing to be led by Him, we can have absolute confidence that He’ll lead us. He will not leave us without His guidance. He will seem to, though, because He’s putting us through things to develop our reliance on His guidance. If we don’t feel lost, we aren’t looking for Him to lead us. And His will for us is to become pillars in His house. Pillars aren’t held up, they stand up for themselves and hold something up.
However, to be pillars, we can’t make ourselves, but God must be the one to make us.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
So Christians are to grow in maturity from babes in Christ to the point where they’re not tossed around on the waves of crafty debate about doctrine:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ. (Ephesians 4)
This is point where we are not depending on any authority other than God.
We all have a responsibility to discern. As for specific people, I only mentioned Timothy Dolan. So what is your judgment on what he said about Michael Sam? He is even one in great authority (and God’s Word says teachers will be judged to a higher standard), so what message from that did he send to people?
And as for Dolan and others in Catholic leadership who are apparently heretics, I have not come to definite conclusions due to just one action or statement. One action or statement is heresy, if it is knowing disregard for what God says. And to be sure of that, other things the person does have to be looked at, and many of those things have been reported here and are well-known. Seemingly without any torment on his part, he is ready to welcome homosexual activists into the St. Patrick’s Day parade. Again, the Bible says for us to give thought to showing what is good to others, and to being light to them. And knowingly, that’s not what he’s doing. As for other leaders, too, isn’t it Marx in Germany? And a leading Roman Catholic nun who advocates all sorts of unchristian things but is still a nun in good standing, taking Communion?
Which Bible? The original or the one things were taken out of?
Look!
Over THERE!
We had a Catholic one; once...
We have a woman in our congregation that went to his church in Indianapolis, while he was still halfway sane.
Let’s use your D-R
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